Can't agree with that. There are just so many variables. Type of drug, environment, personality, purity of drug, state of mind at time of consumption etc etc etc. You don't need to be fucked up for drugs to fuck you up. Not that I'm saying they can't be fun and harmless in moderation.....
I would argue that if a level of awareness can not be reached without the use of a chemical substance, then it's not a level of awareness that's in any way intrinsic to our spiritual development. That's an area that comes down to personal opinion as much as anything though.
..... which is why I was careful to say it's a matter of opinion, because I have no intention of dictating to others what they need for their personal spiritual development. However, I do believe that all the tools we require in order to grow spiritually should be available within ourselves. As I say though, this is just an opinion. On a broader note, it seems to me there's a lot of different arguments getting confused here. For example: 1. Substance abuse and dependency. 2. Recreational drug use. 3. Medicinal drug use. 4. Shamanic/spiritual drug use. I don't think it's possible to meaningfully discuss the topic of drugs without addressing each are independently.
well, I don't wanna say exactly who, but a member of my family, one of the closest to me, was an alcoholic.. and what more.. I was the first, know knew it.. because I was about 11-12 years old, I didn't take it quite simply... I remember I was shocked and I was crying.. but after some time, he/she's got rid of that dependance, so happy end otherwise, since this time, I wasn't able just to touch the glass of beer, much less to drink it.. I was probably afraid, that I could be dependent on it too.. but now, it's ok again
Yeah, well this is why I said that drugs can't be dismissed as an 'aid' to spiritual development. I'd say that if anything though, surely this just reinforces the argument that drugs aren't strictly necessary, but rather a shortcut? Well y'know, I'm not sure I agree. I don't have a problem with moderate recreational drug use. That fits into recreational. Get your hands off my categories
right, my appologies for not expanding my argument in the correct facsion!! well.... first bollacks to the fact that mandalas were created through drug use, this is my point entirely-can you not fathom the thought that these images might come from a totally sobar person? does this concept shock you?! star-you claim to meditate, so therefore i assume you have some knowledge of the practice and the states you can achieve, but yet you are telling me that creative practices, like madalas are created through so-called recreational drug usage? i would have to strongly disagree with that, ive never been privvy to HIs Holiness the Dalai Lama sparking up before preforming a ceremony..... but maybe ive just got my eyes closed.... As for your suggestion that i do some research, of course i do not claim to know everything, i never would. and we all could know more about every topic under the sun, but i have had experience. I know what drugs do to people, i too have experienced the effects of some drugs both internally and externally, and i have been sober a LOT around people off their faces, perhaps you need to do some reasearch yourself and stay sober for a majority of the time aorund people who are off their faces, then perhaps you will see my point a bit more clearly. I did note the use of the word, 'use' and not 'need' and yes perhaps ni am grouping people together but in my experience, most festival go-ers who use drugs once will no doubt use them every time they go to this sort of gathering- in my opinion this is a need, they need it to have a good time, or in other words, to have a better time than they may if they remained sober. The point about it being part of our history, therefore we should follow tradition i also strongly disagree with, chopping peoples heads off in public view was also part of our long held heritage tradition, shall we keep this practice alive also? i think not!! Just because people have done things for years and years to serve a purpose does not mean that we should not question it and investigate the purpose it holds in our society today, and i feel that overall (although some positives may occur these are few and far between) it causes negetivity so should not be partaken in. To say that i shall not experience certain mental states beacuse i do not use drugs is an ignorant comment by far- who is to say i do not experience these states naturally through a trained mind rather than taking a substance which artificially alters the chemicals in my brain, why use this when i can work towards doing it naturally? in fact i believe non drug users have a keener sense of imagination and overall better mental health as they do not suffer the consequences of that 'recreational' drug usage( of which there are too many to count!). If the fact that i choose not to use drugs makes me lazy then so be it, i am proud to be lazy and have my mental sanity and the security that i know what i am doing and putting into my body. forgive me for that.... namaste x x x
I do use alcohol recreationally and mushrooms occasionally. But I kinda have to agree with Nomy here. Meditation does lead to a mental state of happiness that means you tend to naturally find yourself not wanting to bother with drugs of anykind. Drugs are fun, but I am finding I can't be arsed to bother with them as much these days... alcohol / mushies or cigarettes.
Shamans in South America regularly used Salvia Divinorum, hence its name, meaning sage of the diviners. The same with Hawaiin Baby Woodrose seeds, and magic mushrooms. These natural psychoactive substances have long been used in meditation, ritual and for the induction of spiritual experiences. These practices are as old as human history, they can't be written off. Personally speaking, I do meditate, but I don't take drugs to aid meditation. I take drugs for recreational purposes. I don't link the two myself, but cultures and religions have done so since time immemorial. Nomy, I really do see where you're coming from, and I totally understand your position as pertaining to yourself. But you're in danger of overly generalisng and forming an extremist point of view. If you're going to lump everyone in the same boat, then their boat is surely going to sink in your eyes. I think that all people are different and all people have their own subjective experiences of these things....
i totally agree sal, thats the point im trying to make. i do relaise i am generalising but i find it difficult in this situation to not do so, i hope people can find the integrity within themselves to see what im saying through that grouping together. i must point out that i work at a medical herbalist so daily dispence herds in prescriptions, including a strain of slavia. i believe in the right monitered dosage such things have amazing healing powers, as does canabis but thsi does not include getting off your head every night! thats not the proper use! as for the natives you speak of, i do not dispute that they are using the drugs in a positive way, but that is a far cry from someone getting stoned on a satuarday night for a quick bit of fun. tell me how many times have you used drugs alone whilst meditating to achieve a certain state?hmmmm... namaste x x x
Like I said, I never link the two. If I were to do so I'd have to be serious about it and throw myself deeply into those philosophies, otherwise I'd be being hypocritical....
so in that situation i would say that your usage of drugs was a dependency.... "if i ruled the world....." sorry i don't mean to judge.... namaste x x x
Quite. I think it's supposition to say drugs are responsible for every trippy picture. But then again, they might be LOL!!!! I have to agree, spending time around people who're off their face when you yourself are straight will put you off drugs real quick. I agree. I'm not opposed to recreational drug use, but I do find it sad when people need this in order to enjoy themselves. I've known many people who'd only go to festies because they see them as an opportunity to get wrecked. Not that I'm saying being wrecked at a festie can't be fun, but it's sad if that's a need rather than an option. I agree that history is no reason to continue a tradition, but I do feel that you're dismissing shamanic practices a little too easily. However, I'm also inclined to lean towards your point of view because the number of people who I've met who genuinely use drugs in this way I could count on one hand. I sympathise with many of your opinions, and agree with much of what you say. But this is heading dangerously towards generalisation. You're grouping everyone together. Now granted, there aren't a whole load of people who indulge in responsible recreational drug use, but they do exist. I can see why you might have trouble drawing that distinction though.
i'll reiterate what i said to sal above (come on dok get with it! ), i know i am gerenalising, mainly due to the fact i would be here all day if i tried to pick out every singular usage for different reasons, and also beacuse (i know this may cause offense) but the majority, if not all of the people who use drugs on this site will not only use them for meditational purposes or other similar practices. so yes, i am gerenalising but doing so to fit the people who will be reading this....if this was a post in the philosophy and religion forum my responces may differ. namaste x x x
I think I showed that I don't need drugs to have fun, and frequently choose not to, even at festivals. When I make the choice to, it's not a dependency it's a conscious decision. To be fair you've only ever actually seen me in this situation once, I don't think you could possibly generalise so much, or draw conclusions either way....
alcoholism is so sad. I read a book on Keith Moon, and it was really sad about his addiction and he couldn't stop. my dad sometimes drinks too much, then falls asleep. but hes in no way an alcoholic.
There's stuff I agree with on both sides of this debate. I have to say though, I've seen far more harm than good done by drugs, but this may well be as much about social conditioning, purity and the world in general... so I don't believe this is necessarily intrinsic. Anyway..... By 'relationship', what exactly do you mean? If you're talking about a dependency, I'd have to disagree with you. Dependencies are psychological crutches that we use to avoid dealing with deeper issues. But this is only a belief. It's not a fact. Or anywhere near a fact. It's an interesting theory, but as an unproven one it has no bearing on the discussion. I think it's pretty reasonable to assume he's not getting faced!!! I don't think it's that simple. There are no real shortcuts to spiritual growth. Time teaches us lessons, and I don't believe that drugs are a way of bypassing this process. However, this is an entirely subjective opinion. It's impossible to prove it either way. It can. But it can also fuck you up forever. Not that I want to come across all anti-drugs, but halluciongenics are potentially dangerous. If you want to view drugs as a shortcut, then maybe a suitable analogy would be a shortcut that crosses a railway line? I've met hundreds of people who've taken drugs in excessive quantities or for excessive periods, and they're all fucked right up. If you need to take thousands of pills or trips to achieve some level of spiritual awareness, then you have a problem. Your time would be better spent getting out and living your life without chemical interference. You're both guilty of generalising here. You're taking polarised opinions and refusing to meet in the middle. Yes, there are people who take drugs at festies for the reasons you describe. There are also plenty of people who feel they need to take drugs in order to have a good time. And right here you're descending into getting nasty and personal. Being a reasonable guy, I often questioned whether our arguments on this forum were as much my responsibility as yours. Now I can see the dynamic from the outside, it's quite educational. You allow your temper to get the better of you when you're annoyed with what someone is saying. Now I admit that I also allow my temper to get the better of me, but I do generally wait until someone has set out to be offensive. You may not agree with Nomy's opinion, but there's really no need to drag the argument down into personal nastiness at this stage. She's not getting personal with you, so there's no reason for you to be getting personal with her. You've been goading her for the last couple of posts. What do you hope to achieve? You make some interesting points further on in your post, but I can't be arsed to discuss them because it just keeps getting personal from here on in. Have a spliff, chill out, and come back when you can be less aggressive
