A perspective on why man must not sleep with man and why God hates that

Lol. Is it simply your nature to try to make things personal?
In any instance, the "extermination of whatever cultural group I belong to" would be widely perceived as wrong. Does that make it inherently wrong? I do not think it does, but that is not to say that it makes it inherently right.
All I am saying is that there is nothing residing in actions or concepts or abstractions that make them right or wrong, good or bad, likable or dislikable. I am saying that only when these things pass through the filter of our perception and are subsequently judged, do they gain personal value or worth, or lackthereof.
Note, that these values and worths, are personal.

I'm sorry, but international courts filled with members that are of the same flesh and blood as I don't really count as authority figures to me. I like to think for myself rather than let some panel of human beings dictate my thinkings and philosophies. If an international court found it wrong, then I guess they perceived it as wrong, huh?

 

So once again according to you there is nothing wrong with genocide? It's just a matter of perception? People should be able to do any thing they want because there is no right or wrong?

And if someone was to confine, torture you and be slowly starving you to death, any thought on your part that it might be wrong, would merely be your perception of the matter and there would be no need remedy the situation because there is nothing wrong with what is being done to you?

I can see that you don’t allow rational thought to dictate your thinking either.

Can’t you see the logical conclusion that your way of thinking leads you? A person can be talked into doing any abomination that anyone can think up, because no matter what it might be there is nothing wrong with it, after all it’s just a matter of perception.

Your reasoning says that people are free to be terrorists, suicide bombers, rapists, mass murderers, etc. because none of these things are wrong, just a matter of perception.

I hate to break it to you but it’s not just a matter of perception, they are just wrong.

 

People do the things they do mostly because of the practicality of their actions. I'm sure more people than you care to know have envisioned themselves murdering or stealing or raping, wishing they had the courage to do so. They don't commit these actions because the cost to them would be greater than any sort of benefit they could gain. That's it. There is no right or wrong to it. Everything we do is for our personal gain or pleasure, and if you think you do things because they adhere to some Platonic, golden realm standard of "right", then you are just deluding yourself.
For your, once again, very personal example of someone torturing me, of course, I would like to remedy the situation. Not because I have some divine need to cure the other person's "wrong" but simply because I would be in a situation that I would like to avoid due to my own perceptions and judgements. I am not beyond judging perceptions. Most of humanity is not. But, for what seems to be the millionth time I've had to say this, this is not about me, or you, or any group of people or humanity in general. It is about the nature of perception.

If you are going to continue making this assertion, would you at least attempt to explain why you think it is true?

 

So you keep saying but it’s just not.

Just think about the example that I used, you say; “of course I would like to remedy the situation”, remedy? according to you there is nothing to remedy, ask yourself; why didn’t you just say that it would be just fine with me, I would just change my perception of it, so it would be okay?

The problem is it really isn’t a matter of perception, it makes no difference how you perceive it, it’s wrong and no matter how many times you deny it genocide is also wrong.

I believe it was you that first made the assertion that nothing is right or wrong, that it is just perception of it and yet you have not yet proven that true. So I’m just waiting for you to prove that "true" before I go to the trouble of proving to you what almost everybody but you seems to know is true, that there are some things that are just wrong in of themselves.

 

Would it be right to murder someone if it would eventually save 1000 people? My perception leads me to say no, but do the ends justify the means in certain situations? Is it okay to torture terrorists to save lives? Jack Bauer seems to think so.

"The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one". Spock

 

How can we be sure they we are torturing the guilty party? Look at what happened that lead us to the war with Iraq.

I would consider 24 a propaganda show.

"Thou shalt not murder" - God

Personally, I like God more than Spock. Although, Spock would make an excellent apostle, especially with that goatee that he had on in that one episode.

 

Man, I wish there was a Gospel of Spock.

Personally I couldn't kill or torture anyone, but it's easy to see how even murder could be justified under extreme circumstances. If there is a nuclear bomb about to go off in a large city would it be okay to torture someone if there was a chance you could save 1 million people? Some might perceive the torture to be right in this case.

 

lol me too

Gospel according to Spock, "Live long and prosper to those that follow in Christ".

I dunno, I want to agree with you but in the end of the day, people are mistake prone. We can end up torturing the wrong person, but if we don't take that risk millions can die. But it's my opinion that this ultimately leads to more problems then we set out to solve.

I guess it would only be necessary if God himself lead this type of investigation.

Overall, you have a great point. If nothing is done, it would be better, in the end, to torture that one person than to risk millions of lives. I just think that when people take matters into their own hands, many problems can ensue, which end up being much worse than the problem that was sought out to be solved.

And I am like you, I can barely kill a bug, let alone torture someone, especially if that person I torture ends up being innocent.

I usually save them or leave them alone (bug )

 

I agree. 99.99999999999% of the time murder and torture just lead to more of the same.

btw: I save bugs too. I recently got bit by a spider trying to save it from going down the drain. Beware of those suckers.

 

Okay, let’s take a look at the world your philosophy creates.

In your world everything goes, there is no right or wrong but only perception.

So in your world people are free to do whatever they perceive as something they would like to do. There is nothing wrong with rape, mass murder, kidnapping, torture, muggings, robbery, beatings, slavery, genocide, etc; even if someone, that these things are being done to, perceive them as things they don’t want done to them. If they don’t want these things done to them, then the problem isn’t with the things being done to them, the problem is with their perception of those things.

I have to ask, don’t you see a flaw in this philosophy of yours or is this the world you really want to live in?

I guess a person could have an attraction to this kind of world, if you were the one doing the rape, mass murder, kidnapping, torture, muggings, robbery, beatings, slavery, genocide, etc but if you were the one that rape, mass murder, kidnapping, torture, muggings, robbery, beatings, slavery, genocide, etc was being done to, this world might seem a little less attractive.

All in all, I think I’ll choose the world where rape, mass murder, kidnapping, torture, muggings, robbery, beatings, slavery, genocide, etc are inherently wrong, thank you very much.

 

OK, for the millionth and first time, it isn't about ME OR MY PERCEPTIONS. It's the nature of perception in general. How many times must I say this? Would I personally, as an individual with desires and needs, like to avoid torture? Yes. Is this because torture is inherently wrong, or simply because torture causes me pain and I don't like pain? (It's the latter.)
You see, the whole problem is when people are willing to write off things are "inherently wrong or right." We start off with seemingly obvious things that many people can agree on (genocide, rape, murder), but then, we begin to label lesser things are right or wrong that don't really impact people not participating in them at all, like homosexual PDA, they just are included in our broad perceptions of what is wrong.
What ends up happening is persecution, hatred, anger and fear at these neatly labled "wrongs". It's an unwillingness to examine one's interior prejudices and biases that is the problem, and to me, to actively engage in this sort of ultra-standard of right and wrong labeling is not only an act of cowardice, but also intellectual death.

Yes, I stated that as a contrast to your statement that "Homosexual PDA disgust me." I've made several attempts to explain to you my standpoint, my understanding of how perception works, and where I get my view from. You, on the other hand, have increasingly made this innocent exchange of ideas personal, and have even attacked me as a character.
Instead of dancing in circles, let's just be utterly straight about it. You don't want to "go through the trouble of proving it's true" simply because you can't prove it's true. And the reason you can't prove it's true, is in fact, because it isn't true.

 

Let's take a look at the world your philosophy creates.
First history set up a central agency who is responsible for channeling the "Word of God" that is to say, a series of laws with no basis other than the fact that the things they mention are labeled with inherent values due to the personal judgements and discriminations of "God" (and by God, we of course mean, the mental character created by worshippers and empowered to enforce and idealize their narcissitic judgements of themselves, discriminating judgements of others, and their inner, secret prejudices.)
Next, this agency comes into power through sheer mass of people. This, of course, is the sheep mentality that people so often speak of, and indicates the death of individual thought. Rather than deciding their own worths and creating their own view of the world around them, these people will be forced through weaknesses in their own personal psychology to give into fear, and join this group of collective judgements of "right and wrong", so as not to be left out of the group, become a minority, and therefor, become an embodiement of opposition, which really, is equivelant to being "evil".
Finally, to bring things full circle, this agency now has a tremendous voice that is heard throughout the world, and not only are members of this power afraid of themselves inside their own mind and unwilling to face what it means to be human, conscious, and alive as an individual being, they also empower that fear through anger and hate at those who are different from them, those that represent things that they do not, that is to say, the "wrongs" to their "right", and they are persecuted and many of these "horrible deeds" that are considered "inherently wrong" will be committed against them in the name of the white, holy, Platonic "right".
Some funhouse we have created, huh?

 

But I thought you're arguing that everything is about how you perceive it and now it's not about how you perceive it? Interesting.

 

Well, I’m not sure who’s philosophy you’re using to create this “world” but it’s certainly not mine.

Also, It’s interesting to note that all these “terrible” things in the funhouse that you have imagined are also allowed in your philosophy and not to even be considered wrong or bad or even unpleasant.

 

I think that perhaps you should reread what I said, that you think you are answering. Perhaps you will see that I said nothing about right or wrong, I was talking about my personal “perception” that I find homosexual PDA to be a little disgusting and then I said that I’m not all that fond of heterosexual PDA either. No right or wrong, that whole idea was your “perception” not mine.

Now your “perception” is that because I personally perceive homosexual PDA some what disgusting, that it is going to lead to persecution, hatred, anger and fear, interestingly after 60 years I don’t feel that way about homosexuals, so I have to ask when is it going to happen?

As I‘ve pointed out, almost nothing you have said is a contrast to what I said. In fact if you had bothered to read my posts in this tread you would read where I even said that if you had directly called me on it, I would have said that the disgust I felt could very well be my perception but that is not what you said. You instead indicated that nothing is right or wrong and that everything is just perception, to which I took exception because at that point we were no longer talking about just my disgust at homosexual PDA but also about some of the most evil things known to mankind

Yes you have made several attempts to explain but attempts to explain are not proof that what you say is true, is it?

Attacked you as a character? I never once said you where a character.

It's you that continues to dance in circles, while I continue to wonder why you are so reluctant to prove what you say is true? Could it be because as you say; it isn’t true?

 

It's never been about the personal me or the personal you. It's about perception in general, and I've stated that from the very beginning.

 

Honestly....
What don't you get? Doubtlessly I find things wrong or right. I am not beyond the discriminating judgements that are in effect when we apply these labels to things. But it isn't about me.
If you lack the capacity to remove yourself from the ideas presented in the conversation, then I suppose there isn't going to be any point in discussing this further.
For the final time, this is about the way perception works, and that there is no inherent qualities to be found within things by themselves. The qualities arise when "you" are involved.

 

Yes, you did say that was your "personal perception" of it, but then go on to define your reasoning basically as "God says it's bad". Now, if this is really why you feel it's disgusting, it sort of requires everyone else to fit under your perception of it as well. Because if an entity such as "God" decrees it as disgusting, you've pretty much convinced yourself that your perception of homosexual PDA is the only acurate one, effectively dismissing any alternative views of it. It's lazy.

To you? Who is to say?
I'm glad that you are able to fit compassion on the poor, poor sinners that commit these horrible, disgusting acts of debauchery, but are you really going to say now that there is no persecution in our world directly due to people hating what they consider wrong?

Your disgust at homosexual PDA is symptomatic of the way perception functions in general. It's a reflection of it. I'm not really interested in dissecting your own personal feelings and perceptions, I wanted to address the bigger issue, perception in general. And by doing this, I've covered anything that can fit under it.

But really though, where do you find the difference between your disgust at homosexual PDA, which at this point you have admitted it could just be your perception of it, and your disgust at the "most evil things known to mankind"?

You've displayed an unwillingness to allow this conversation to elevate past the realm of the personalities involved. If you won't break out of the shell that is you, then you aren't really going to get what I'm saying.

Why do things have inherent values?

 

hey neodude is your favorite pokemon...geodude?

 

Oh I can idealize with the best of them, but sorry, I thought we were talking about how reality actually works not just how you imagine it works.