40 Years of Drug War Failure Represented in a Single Chart

You said: "Corruption and violence are the result of marijuana's legal status..."
My post said: “a cash crop that finances corruption and the carnage of violence year after year.”
Those two sentences do not have the same meaning, imho.
My earlier post goes onto say: "...are used not only to finance other drug enterprises by Mexico’s poly-drug cartels, but also to pay recurring “business” expenses, purchase weapons, and bribe corrupt officials."

If Marijuana was legalised in the United States would the drug cartels stop growing/selling Marijuana for the reasons given above?
Would the 'drug war' be won and all the cartels close down overnight?
Or would they continue albeit with more violence and corruption to secure - if not all - a healthier monopoly of the trade. This time legally?

You say Marijuana is the scapegoat - but perhaps it's heavily cracked down on because it generates so much money for the cartels - so securing it's destruction helps hinder the cartels finances which are used to support the other areas of their business - the murkier cocaine/meth business.
Let alone the political and social influences they seek to have/maintain.

I personally think the DEA has a multi-pronged approach, and a multi-pronged reason for wishing to shut these cartels down.
Yes, the DEA think Marijuana is bad for your mental/health, and a blight to social cohesion etc etc.
But it also wants to stop the cartels best way to generate money.

I personally think the cartels have a multi-pronged reason to grow/sell Marijuana.
It is highly sought after.
It is a 'cash crop' that generates vast sums of money.
It helps fund other areas of the business (if we can call it that) as highlighted above.

If you think they are going to give that up because you think they will lose vast sums of money (to be fair, I'm not sure how much this is: $$$$$$ )...
...then I think you are mistaken.
I'm not convinced that making Marijuana legal in the US would stop the cartels - especially in this globalised world we live in.
It does sometimes seem Americans see as far as the end of their noses: "We'll be smoking our Marijuana - screw everything and everybody else."
The bigger picture I speak of goes beyond the end of their noses (a horrible metaphor given we are talking about cocaine - but there you go).

I don't agree with the harsh sentences handed out for Marijuana possession.
And three strikes and you're in prison for the rest of your life natural days seems a tad harsh - to put it mildly.

If it was as simple as: Marijuana becomes legal. The cartels close down. Everybody who is in prison for Marijuana offences is released. The government/taxpayers saves itself/themselves vast sums of money. The end....I'd totally be behind legalising Marijuana.

See, I do not believe this is true.
This is something I'd need to be convinced of and not some 30 year old controversy with the Contras etc etc.
Recent, relevant and reasonable.

 

OdonII, Once again you have supplied yourself with plenty of incentives to legalize marijuana at least in the U.S..
Because it would deal a financial blow to the organized drug cartels.
Why can't you comprehend that?

Plus you obviously aren't very knowledgeable about the whole pot trade so I'll clue you in. South American cartels are not exporting weed to Europe, it all goes to North America. Your weed is mostly coming from Asia. Cocaine is of course coming from South America.
So yes, legalization in America would hurt the Mexican drug cartels.

Really think about it. You say Marijuana represents the biggest cash crop for the cartels and helps fund their other activities. This we agree on.
So what would happen if their main source of revenue was suddenly made legal in their biggest market and they could no longer charge high prices associated with the criminal risk involved?

Are they going to force people to buy their weed at gunpoint?

No it's not as simple as legalize weed and cartels fold, but legalization would deal a hefty blow to the cartels.
Then add in the enormous savings that would be realized without all the cost of law enforcement, court costs and incarceration.

A couple of years ago in Ca. possession of up to an ounce was demoted to a simple infraction with a fine not to exceed $100.
An infraction, no court appearance, no record, nothing, just pay the fine and done.

That was done solely to save millions of dollars each year the state was spending trying to enforce essentially unenforceable laws.

I guess you really have no clue about the facts involved and are just standing by your ill-informed opinion.
It's not my job to convince you of something so blatantly simple, rational and logical as legalizing marijuana, so do some research yourself and discover that all your arguments are about as strong as wet tissue paper.

 

NG has got it covered in here, guess I can go play elsewhere

 

Yes, as long as the US isn't spending lots of money policing the cartels - everything is ok, right? Forget the rest of the world.

I didn't actually say the cartels were currently exporting Marijuana into Europe.
Where did I say they were?
It's not outside the realms of possibility if the North American market dries up.
But, I actually said they would no doubt continue growing/distributing because it was so profitable - that means within North America.
Who is going to stop them?
I'd add: outside of North America, too, if they had to.

There cocaine market would not change.
Given this 'war on drugs' redaction is only concerned with Marijuana.

If Marijuana was made legal you have to ask yourself what would happen to the price - that's true.
Would the price decrease/increase or remain the same?
I suspect due to North America wishing to curtail the sale as much as they could (due to the other prong) - the price would remain the same.
Perhaps even increase.
But that is all speculative. I'm unsure.
Especially when you consider the price would fluctuate as does other 'seeds' now: corn, wheat etc.

You really would not have to.

We just don't know that would be the case.
I have tried to explain why that is.

Money would be saved due to the relaxation of draconian judicial procedures, fines and prison sentences. Yes. That would be a certainty.

I think your arguments rest on the cartels being diminished, and pretty much stopping their Marijuana/Cocaine/Meth activities, and a shrinking market.
We just can't rely on that being true. Given the fact: why would they stop doing something that makes them lots and lots of money?

 

Odon, you really are clueless.

I phrased it that way because you are so fixated on Mexican cartels who have the biggest impact in the U.S., we are talking about how this relates to the cartels, right?

My argument doesn't rest on the cartels being diminished, that would just be one of many beneficial effects of legalizing marijuana. You were the one who brought drug cartels into the discussion and are kinda stuck on the idea of the "Big Bad Mexican Drug Lords". Fuck dude, quit basing your opinion on sensationalized stereotypes.

It is really fucking simple in regards to drug cartels and marijuana.

Remove the customer base from any business venture and it's going to have a negative impact on that business, whether it's legal or criminal.
Legalization would bring with it controls and such, much like alcohol. In that scenario the market for bootleg marijuana would not flourish at all. Again, look at the history of alcohol prohibition to get an idea of what would most likely happen. The stills and speakeasies closed their doors because there was no need for them and why the fuck would someone pay some moonshiner for suspect gin when they can just go to the store and by gin that they know is safe and is exactly what it says on the label.

Same fucking thing would happen with weed.
I can go and by weed that has been brought in from over the border probably 6 months ago in the gas tank of a truck or some shit right now tonight if I wanted, or I could go to the dispensary and choose from a wide selection of strains that have been tested for strength, mold, etc. and know exactly what I'm getting for the same or better price and pay with a credit card.

Which would you choose Odon?


I'm done with this line of discussion with you because you keep bringing up things that could actually be corrected by legalization and claiming they would be greater problems.
My conclusion is that you have no honest clue about the topic.

The OP has provided volumes of information, you could start there.

 

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FARC Shows World How To Stop Coca Production

Toxic Drift: Monsanto and the Drug War in Colombia

Prohibit Elected Lobbyists and Yellow Journalism

Nixon's 40 Year War On Drugs... Drugs Won!

What the WHO doesn't want you to know about cannabis

Exporting DEAmocracy
Vietnam: Wearing black helmets and police T-shirts, their handguns levelled, a drug raid team inches along the outside of a compound, throws open the door, spots a man with a gun and opens fire... This Hanoi paintball op is part of a US-Vietnamese training exercise in which Drug Enforcement Administration (DEA) agents pass on some of the skills of their dangerous trade to their local counterparts.

This is part of our global contribution. The drug war has become the preferred foreign policy approach toward controlling much of the world. We export our drug war, our tactics, and, most of all, our DEA.
(Now with offices in Belize, Guatemala, Nicaragua, Mexico, Canada, Panama, Costa Rica, El Salvador, Honduras, Paraguay, Colombia, Brazil, Argentina, Uruguay, Venezuela, Bolivia, Peru, Ecuador, Chile, Antigua and Barbuda, Barbados, Dominica, Grenada, St. Kitts & Nevis, St. Vincent & the Grenadines, St. Lucia, Aruba, Netherlands Antilles, Suriname, Jamaica, The Bahamas, Turks & Caicos Islands, Haiti, Guyana, Trinidad & Tobago, Suriname, Dominican Republic, Cambodia, Thailand, Mongolia, Australia, Cook Islands, Fiji, French Polynesia, New Caldeonia, New Zealand, Niue, Papua New Guinea, Solomon Islands, Tokelau, Tonga, Tuvalu, Vanuatu, Wallis & Futuna, Western Samoa, Vietnam, Hong Kong, Macau, Taiwan, Malaysia, Kiribati, Nauru, Philippines, Burma, South Korea, Brunei, East Timor, Indonesia, Singapore, Japan, Laos, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Bulgaria, Georgia, Iran, Iraq, Turkey, Greece, The Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, Romania, Bahrain, Chad, Dijibouti, Egypt, Eritrea, Ethiopia, Kuwait, Libya, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Somalia, Sudan, Yemen, Oman, Pakistan, United Arab Emirates, Afghanistan, Russia, Bangladesh, India, Maldives, Nepal, Sri Lanka, Cyprus, Israel, Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, Kazakstan, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Liechtenstein, Switzerland, Belgium, Luxembourg, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, Greenland, Iceland, Latvia, Lithuania, Norway, Sweden, Czech Republic, Germany, Benin, Burkina Faso, Cameroon, Congo, Equatorial Guinea, Gabon, The Gambia, Ghana, Guinea, Guinea-Bissau, Ivory Coast, Liberia, Mali, Mauritania, Niger, Nigeria, Senegal, Sierra Leone, Togo, Western Sahara, Channel Islands, Ireland, Isle of Man, Northern Ireland, United Kingdom, Azores, Balearic Islands, Canary Islands, Cape Verde, Gibraltar, Portugal, Principality of Andorra, Spain, Spanish Enclaves (Ceuta & Melilla), Algeria, France, Monaco, Morocco, Tunisia, Angola, Botswana, Burundi, Central African Republic, Comoros, Democratic Republic of the Congo, Kenya, Lesotho, Madagascar, Malawi, Mauritius, Mozambique, Namibia, Rwanda, Seychelles, South Africa, Swaziland, Tanzania, Uganda, Zambia, Zimbabwe, Albania, Bosnia, Croatia, Italy, Malta, Montenegro, San Marino, Serbia, Slovenia, Netherlands, Poland, Austria, Belarus, Hungary, Moldova, Slovak Republic, Ukraine.)

Grenade Burns Sleeping Girl as SWAT Team Raids Billings
A 12-year-old girl suffered burns to one side of her body when a flash grenade went off next to her as a police SWAT team raided a West End home Tuesday morning.

 

I hadn't realised I was fixated on Mexican cartels.
However, I have read they control approx 90% of the drugs that enter the U.S.
If this figure is not proportionate, then please do let me know how much they do.
I'm not trying to hold onto that figure with my life.

"I phrased it that way because you are so fixated on Mexican cartels who have the biggest impact in the U.S."

Are you agreeing with me or disagreeing with me? : /

I did so because I was trying to explain what I saw as the 'bigger picture'.
I'm not really suggesting there are a handful of men smoking cigars controlling the flow of drugs to the U.S. - I've seen those movies, though.
Like I've said, if you know what kind of percentage they do control - with relation to the U.S, and who actually has monopolised the drug trafficking to the U.S - please do share.

You do realise I'm talking about the recreational use and the so-called medicinal use, right?
How is the customer base going to be removed?
Do you think the government - once legalised - is suddenly going to produce all the marijuana, and give everybody who wants to smoke it a prescription - or something?
Like I said, the cartels are going to continue, regardless, imho.
I'm not quite sure why you think they won't.
I guess you see their role as minor (we shall see if you have any better info than me on their dominance/irrelevance).

I think you think that only legitimate farmers (or the state) is going to grow marijuana.
Perhaps you are correct.
I have a feeling (and like I said earlier) those that were once illegal will just grow it legitimately, imho.
It would probably be very difficult to police.
I don't think it will be ma and pa growing it for their local farmers market.
It would be huge farmer producing it on an industrial scale.

Tesco's!

I hope you can appreciate I'm not suggesting there would be a large nefarious black market - it would more or less be all above the table.
You have to wonder who the farmers will be or who their paymasters will be.
If the legitimate over the counter marijuana is actually being grown by drug gangs - albeit with a 'respectable' face...the money ends up where?
I'm not suggesting this WILL happen.
I just wonder how it could be prevented.

I don't think I have over-stretched myself.
I don't think I have speculated as much as you have.

I read all of it.
I Knew some of it.
Dispute about a quarter of it.
Agree with half of it.
I would like to have read Brad Pitt's full interview, though.
I can't find it online : /

 

Brad Pitt: US war on drugs is a 'charade'
Ben Child guardian.co.uk, Monday 15 October 2012
In promotion of new documentary The House I Live in, Pitt says America's anti-drugs strategy is 'backward'


'My drug days have long passed' ... Brad Pitt attends an LA screening of The House I Live in. Photograph: Todd Williamson/Invision/AP

Brad Pitt has labelled the US "war on drugs" a "charade" during a promotional stint for new documentary The House I Live in.

Pitt, who takes a producer's credit on the new film from Why We Fight director Eugene Jarecki, flew in from Europe especially to appear at the Sundance Sunset Cinema in west Hollywood. Jarecki's documentary suggests that efforts by the US government to fight drug trafficking are doomed to failure, and that a new approach should be adopted.

"My drug days have long since passed," Pitt told the Hollywood Reporter. "But I could probably land in any American city and within 24 hours find whatever you want. But we still support this charade called the drug war. We spent a trillion dollars over 40 years and a lot of people have lost their lives over it."

Pitt said he had become involved in the film because "the subject has bugged me for a long time". He added: "It's a backward strategy. It makes no sense and we keep going on the path like we're winning, when it perpetuates more drugs being used."

"Look at alcohol," added Jarecki, who jokingly described Pitt as a "drug addict" during his introduction to the film. "After prohibition, we regrouped and said it was a bad idea what we're doing. Now we have a system where alcohol is illegal for children; the government profits off it; grownups can use it responsibly, which means if I go out in my car and kill some one it's manslaughter. But if I've been drinking, it's an aggravating prosecutorial factor. So why is it that drugs – which are less damaging to public health than alcohol – why is it we treat them more severely?"

The House I Live in won the documentary grand jury prize at the 2012 Sundance film festival, which described it as "not only the definitive film on the failure of America's drug war, but also a masterpiece filled with hope and the potential to effect change". It began screening in US cinemas earlier this month and is due to arrive in the UK on 23 November.

American High Society