Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance, An Inquiry into Values

Discussion in 'Philosophy and Religion' started by MeAgain, Oct 11, 2021.

  1. oldguynurse

    oldguynurse Lifetime Supporter Lifetime Supporter

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    A
    Another well-put. If I may use Occam for a moment, and two comments:

    "...Humor is an obvious quality he lacks, because quality is context dependent..."

    I would replace the first 'quality' with 'attribute', to differentiate the personal from the larger subject in discussion. Again, the semantic bug-a-boo that trips up many.

    "...By merely examining the Big Picture, and questioning the validity of his two thousand year old logic and metaphysics, he might have actually found the answers he was looking for...."

    Ahh, the ever-elusive "Big Picture". So lacking in the 'bean-counter' and 'hair-splitter' types. And again, verbiage is their playground. In my twenties and thirties, I played there also.

    But I no longer chase verbal rabbits. Been there, done that. Age and time and experience will pull one back from the details into 'the Big Picture'.

    FWIW
     
  2. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed & Confused Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

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    Rhetorical arguments.

    He could claim that his peers were incompetent and couldn't possibly understand what Quality was. But then they would say that he doesn't know either, and that was that.
    He could claim that even though he couldn't describe what Quality was that doesn't mean that a definition couldn't be found by someone more competent than he. Couldn't they help him? But they would reply that they don't know either so forget it.
    Finally he could have refused to define Quality as subjective or objective at all as he had already declared that it was undefinable.

    But he ignored all these arguments and choose to seek a definition of Quality after all.

    He started by considering the first horn of the dilemma:
     
  3. oldguynurse

    oldguynurse Lifetime Supporter Lifetime Supporter

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    "..But he ignored all these arguments and choose to seek a definition of Quality after all..."

    I had this same discussion fifty years ago, in an advertising class with a friend who objected using the word 'quality' in advertising copywriting. He was right of course, but there was nothing he or I could do to change general-public use, except not in our own work.

    Oooh, look at all the semantic rabbits to chase!

    You guys carry on. I'm outa here.
     
  4. wooleeheron

    wooleeheron Brain Damaged Lifetime Supporter

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    Garbage In, Garbage Out, rules language and the courtroom. I have two hands and legs, which are common human attributes that can be considered quantitatively, but a sense of humor is a qualitative attribute by definition, requiring awareness of the self-evident truth, or the greater context. Quantum mechanics is proof that, without a sense of humor, logic makes no damned sense whatsoever. Trust me, I'm writing the book on the subject, and the mathematical comedy is endless. Newtonian Mechanics and classic logic have turned out to be tautological, by their own standards, String theory has turned out to be tautological, and Relativity is flat out self-contradictory. What is required is first a command of the English language, including the fact it has two grammars and not one, and less splitting of semantic hairs and archaic waxing armchair philosophical.

    Believe it not, some of us have actually studied the issue of how to abuse language systematically. A bit deeper than visiting websites on logical fallacies and reading up on Noam Chomsky, who's a complete idiot, promoting militant atheists who cannot teach a child how to use a dictionary. Language begins with sharing your words and playing nice, or its legal mumbo jumbo by wannabe comedians.
     
  5. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed & Confused Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

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    Could it be because all the scientists detect IS Quality?
    The object being detected can only be detected by its qualities. If so the first horn of the dilemma is destroyed.
    But this couldn't be true, the qualities of color, weight, hardness, etc. are physical properties not the Quality of goodness or badness.

    He considered the other horn, Quality is "just what you like".
    But that amounts to "do whatever you like", and doing whatever you like is bad.
    Looking closer, he then divided "what you like" into two and called the split scientific materialism and classic formalism in an attempt to understand what all this meant.

    Scientific materialism claims that only that which is measurable by scientific instruments is real, everything else is unreal. We can't measure what you like, as it is objective, therefore the concept of Quality is unreal.
    Classic formalism claims that if you can't explain a concept without becoming emotionally involved, you don't really understand it at all. What you like involves emotions, therefore Quality cannot be understood rationally and is unreal.

    Then of course, he set out to disprove both of these.
     
  6. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed & Confused Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

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    (Okay, I'm back. Just took a little trip outside to clear my inside!)

    Scientific materialism claims that only that which is measurable by scientific instruments is real.
    Classic formalism claims that you can't explain a concept without becoming emotionally involved

    Scientific materialism first.
    Phædrus attacked it by attacking the premise, only that which is measurable by scientific instruments is real. Or only anything composed of mass/energy is real.
    He started with the concept of Zero. It has no mass and no energy and therefore according to Scientific materialism was not real. But then how could digital computers, which are based on millions of ones and zeros, work?
    Same with every other scientific concepts, no mass, no energy anywhere.
    But that lacked common sense.
    At this point he reconsidered, if Quality exists at all why do so many people disagree as to what it is?
    Perhaps the answer was that as per Classic formalism, emotions were involved!
    Perhaps some people saw Quality through an emotional filter and others through (scientific) knowledge.
    Things were getting ugly.
     
  7. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed & Confused Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

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    So now we have classic Quality and romantic Quality.
    But the Quality Phædrus was talking about was beyond dualism, beyond classic Quality and romantic Quality.
    This Quality duality was just more of the age old mind verses matter problem and how could Quality be either?
    Quality transcends both.
    Quality can reside in objects, but it also can reside in feelings, and it could reside in a meeting of the two.
    Quality isn't a thing, it's an event. It occurs when one becomes aware of an object. And...to be aware of an object, there must be a subject.
    Quality creates the world!
     
  8. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed & Confused Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

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    "Quality creates the world" sounds very mysterious, very new age, it requires some explanation.

    He was speaking of the moment of awareness, before a thing is recognized as a thing.
    We exist in the moment, the past is gone, the future hasn't yet arrived.
    The tree that we see is always in the past due to the time lag between light entering the eyes, the transmission of data to the brain, and a recognition of what that data implies. Therefore the tree that we see is unreal. It has already changed, however minutely.
    Intellectuals have trouble seeing this Quality as they are trained to recognize objects, facts, and data. Children have little trouble as they have little social and cultural training.

    He had destroyed the romantic/classic Quality split.
    Romantic and classic Quality were just different aspects of the same thing.

    He finally had a definition:
     
  9. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed & Confused Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

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    Quality, as defined by different people, is different becasue they all have different backgrounds and must use different words and concepts to express themselves. But the initial experience of Quality is always the same.
    A simple definition of Quality would be
    Ultimately though Quality can not be defined as any definition of it would come after the direct experience. All definitions of Quality come after the experience of Quality and are therefore less than Quality itself.
    "All of it. Every last bit of it."
    The beginning of madness.​
     
  10. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed & Confused Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

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    "All of it. Every last bit of it."
    Quality was a monism.
    There have been Western and Eastern monisms before but he thought his Quality was different.
    It Read:
     
  11. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed & Confused Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

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    "Quality is the Buddha"

    If this statement by Phædrus is true he had united Religion, Art and Science.
    A mathematician, physicist, andphilosopher named Henri Poincaré came to his attention.
    [​IMG]
    Poincaré concluded that the laws of geometry are merely definitions.
    He then questioned what facts are. What facts should be considered from the infinity of those possible?
    What hypotheses should be followed from the infinity of those possible?
     
  12. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed & Confused Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

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    Poincaré thought that facts were hierarchical. Some were better than others.
    General facts are more important than specific facts. If no species existed, only individuals, biology would not be a science.
    Simple facts are more important than complicated facts. Simple facts reoccur and often make up parts of complicated facts.
    New facts are discovered not by effort but by the "subliminal self," Phædrus called this preintellectual awareness.
    Facts are preselected by the subliminal self based on harmony, not discovered by the intellect.
     
  13. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed & Confused Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

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    First we must consider some of the problems encountered with the maintenance of a motorcycle.
    Stuckness.
    Stuckness is a mental block that occurs when you encounter something that is stuck. Such as that screw that won't come loose on that motorcycle. The screw driver slips and you ruin the head of the screw. No way to get it out now, you're stuck. The scientific method doesn't help, observation doesn't help, "correct thinking" doesn't help.
    There sits the motorcycle with a ruined screw, and there you are staring at it. Quality has diminished. There is no Quality feel to the stuckness of the screw and the stuckness of your thoughts.

    Quality needs to be restored.
    Classic Knowledge is the train itself, rumbling along the track.
    Romantic Knowledge is the leading edge of the engine, right in front, a moving plane being pushed by the train itself. Romantic Knowledge is the moving train of knowledge. Without movement there is no train of knowledge as a standing train isn't a train at all. A train must be moving to serve its function as a train.
    Thus the train of knowledge moves along the track of Quality guided by Romantic Reality.
    Classical Knowledge, as the train itself, is a collection of all the places the leading edge of Romantic Knowledge has been. At the leading edge there are no subjects or objects just the Quality of the track below. There's no way of knowing what's ahead, the future is open to all possibilities.
     
  14. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed & Confused Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

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    That stuckness we had over the ruined screw on the motorcycle comes from ignoring the leading edge of Quailty.
    Old ideas about screws, screw drivers, removal, motorcycles, and so on need to be viewed as dynamic events, not static objects.
    That cheap little stuck screw now assumes great importance, the motorcycle is worthless unless you get the screw out.
    You must reevaluate what that screw is. It's not really just an object, it's a function. You need to know not what it is, but how does it operate? What does it do?
     
  15. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed & Confused Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

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    At the moment of perception there is no subject and no object. There is only Quality. Subject and object are identical and only come to be separated later.

    Tat Tvam Asi

    The feeling of isolation from a motorcycle, of it being an object as opposed to a process, the rejection of technology as something ugly that infringes on the beauty of nature, the impression of a lack of quality in that stuck screw all stems from lack of understanding of the nature of dualistic thought. A lack of an understanding of Quality.
    [​IMG]




     
  16. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed & Confused Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

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    Classic and Romantic Quality must work together.
    It isn't enough to follow the laws of science exclusively while ignoring emotion and beauty.
    And you can't get by on pure emotional appeal and good looks.
    It takes both.
    What we need is peace of mind. Peace of mind allows us to see the Quality event as it is before we assign it to an object or law of science and before we see any beauty or ugliness.

    Peace of mind doesn't mean we have to sit and meditate or gaze at a beautiful sunset. It can occur at anytime, while reading a book, painting a car, throwing a football pass, or in the middle of armed combat. Peace of mind occurs when the self is forgotten and only the task at hand is attended to. The inner mind is allowed to shine forth.
    Cultivating peace of mind achieves more results than political programs, religious tenets, or social reform.
     
  17. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed & Confused Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

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    A loss of quality, or rather a failure to see Quality, is a trap that causes one to lose interest in what they are doing or fail to see the truth or falsity of their thoughts or beliefs.
    There are two types of traps,
    The first external trap, can occur due to an out of sequence assembly. You forgot to put in a bearing liner before you closed the engine case. Nothing to do but split the case again and install that liner.
    There are several ways to prevent his. Make notes of everything you take apart and refer to those notes as you reassemble. Read the manual. Currently my favorite way is to video the disassembly, and take pictures with my smart phone, and refer to them as you put it all back together.
    Another external trap is the intermittent problem. The tail light that's fine until you take a ride on the road; then it doesn't work. But how can you fix it if the bike has to be moving for it to fail? That's when you have to stop and figure out what is different when the bike is still and when it is moving.
    Then we have the wrong parts trap.

    The second type, the internal trap, is the one that occurs because of you,
    When fixing a motorcycle sometimes the answer to the problem is right there in front of you. But you don't see it. It has no value, no Quality.
    You have to discard what you know and find new facts.
    Other value traps include the ego trap, believing you have the answer when you don't. The anxiety trap, when you're afraid to turn that bolt becasue it might break. The boredom trap, and its opposite the impatience trap, when you hurry a procedure that should take time.

    Next we look at truth traps.
     
  18. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed & Confused Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

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    Truth traps involve data, or facts. For the most part they are handled correctly by the scientific method and logic.
    But one type is different, the yes/no, either/or trap.
    This one is found when we ask if something is either good or bad, hot or cold, right or wrong; and that's it. It fails to consider a third alternative. That alternative is that the question is improper.
    Let's look at a computer. It is common knowledge that all the data stored in a computer or computer program consists of two states only, on or off, one or zero, voltage or no voltage.
    But in a electrical circuit there is either voltage or an indeterminate state, not a zero state. That indeterminate state doesn't necessarily have no voltage at all due to induction by various electromagnetic fields or charge accumulation within the device itself.
    The question, is the computer in a voltage or zero voltage state, is too narrow, it gives a "mu" answer. We need to consider the voltage state in greater detail.
    The next type of traps are the psychomotor traps, the first of which is the wrong tools. If you don't have the right, or Quality tools, you're going to have trouble.
    Muscular insensitivity is next. To combat it you need to develop a "mechanic’s feel". You need to know how much pressure you can apply before you strip those threads, or break that bolt by over tightening. This is where the right tool, in the form of a torque wrench, might help. There are also different types of hammers used for pounding on different types of surfaces to aid your mechanics feel or help avoid damage. They may have steel, plastic, lead, or rubber, wood, copper, or aluminum heads, all designed to avoid damaging the surface they are being applied to. Anyone who owns a classic British sports car with center lock "knock off" wheels knows you never use a steel hammer to remove them, a copper or lead hammer is needed.

    [​IMG]

    Quality tools, quality "feel".​
     
  19. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed & Confused Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

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    Evading traps calls for pursuing side trails that have been little traveled.
    As Phædrus thought this over he began to see that some of those trails led to the same place, ancient Greece.
    He began a search for a school or program where he might investigate and study this realm of Quality that he had found and its relation to ancient Greece.
    He applied but was told that his area of study, English composition, was a methodological field, not a substantive field; and the interview was over.
    He left for the mountains and thought that over.
    No subject is wholly one or the other, furthermore Quality wasn't a substance neither is it a method, it transcends both. What was going on here?
    He decided to look into the backgrounds of the committee and found their writings to be confusing and full of large words and strange sentence structure. At first he thought it looked that way becasue it was over his head, then he suspected the chairman had become so specialized that he had lost his ability to communicate with ordinary people, then he hit on it.
     
  20. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed & Confused Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

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    The assistant chairman for the Committee on Analysis of Ideas and Study of Methods was shocked because Phædrus didn’t know that he had hit upon one of the most famous academic controversies of the century.
    The controversy stemmed from the 1930s when the president of the University of Chicago declared that human wisdom had reached a peak and had advanced little since St. Thomas Aquinas had attempted to unify the insights of Plato and Aristotle with the Christian faith in the thirteenth century.
    Science, being "value free" was incapable of producing a sound education. As science can never see or find absolute Quality one had to look to the philosophy of the ancient Greeks to find some way of finding Quality or value.
    Phædrus had thoughts along the same line, but why stop at Aristotle? Something still wasn't right.
    The only one left at the University of Chicago who had pushed this idea was the present chairman of the Committee on Analysis of Ideas to which Phædrus had applied. He was known to be a not very genital person
    Dark clouds were gathering.
     

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