Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance, An Inquiry into Values

Discussion in 'Philosophy and Religion' started by MeAgain, Oct 11, 2021.

  1. wooleeheron

    wooleeheron Brain Damaged Lifetime Supporter

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    The Umbral Moonshine Conjecture has been established, making it now theoretically possible to measure infinity in the real world. Assuming 42 is as good as it gets, it means everything they measure should eventually prove to be infinite in some regard, including any mathematics they care to use. Without a sense of humor, Zen becomes the art of missing the big picture. He couldn't know it when he wrote this book, without being more of an expert than academic philosophers, who are stupid as hell, but the mathematics, physics, and linguistics had already been developed which suggested that 42 is as good as it gets.
     
  2. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed & Confused Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

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    If you say so. Can't say I understand what the Umbral Moonshine Conjecture is or how you are relating it to this book. Seems to me Monstrous moonshine, and the Umbral Moonshine Conjecture are just ways to measure the universe using theoretical mathematics. Just more human concepts of how the universe is ordered. The term infinity itself is just another human concept.
     
  3. soulcompromise

    soulcompromise Member Lifetime Supporter

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    I never got into the book.

    I was a staunch proponent of "Dove" (about sailing), and "Brave New World" (about soma... :tonguewink:, or something else. I think the main guy kills himself at the end - anticlimactic). I read the chronicles of Narnia a couple of times too. :anguished: But I couldn't get past the term "Zen", at least not at the age of 14. What I mean is I always sort of felt like I was selling my faith if I accepted "Zen"; not that those who've read the book have, no - nothing of the sort... But when I was young I had been raised by a very devoutly Catholic family; more so on my mother's side, but both sides went to church. Always. Religiously...

    And so, because I perceived "Zen" as a religious philosophy differing from my own, I felt like there was literally a conflicting paradigm - it would have been contradictory, and further my family would have me divest from it...

    :coldsweat:

    So, I never read it and though now I'm reasonable, back then I was less able to separate intellect from faith. :innocent::imp:
     
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  4. wooleeheron

    wooleeheron Brain Damaged Lifetime Supporter

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    "Reality, what a concept!" Mork from Ork

    According to modern science, reality is something we can measure, and infinity is something we can measure in reality, because the mind and brain are actually a self-organizing system, and your dualistic logic only superficially reflects reality.
     
  5. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed & Confused Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

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    It seems the entire nature of reason has a defect.
    And this brings us to philosophy.

    What is truth if science can't find it but continually hunts for it by postulating, experimenting, answering; and then finding out revisions need to be made, and then more revisions, and more, and more....?
    To answer these questions Phædrus entered the world of Immanuel Kant and David Hume.
    Hume asked:
    As an empiricist, Hume answered that the child would have no thoughts at all, as it never receives any input from the senses.

    But empiricism has problems.
    The first being, what are these things that supply input, or data, to the senses? If there are no senses how can we define anything at all?
    The second problem is that if all we know comes from our senses, where does the notion of cause come from? How can objects or substance cause thoughts to arise? There is no sensory experience of causation.
    And if the above is true, then empirical reasoning is in danger.
    Kant could not accept that conclusion.
     
  6. wooleeheron

    wooleeheron Brain Damaged Lifetime Supporter

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    A thousand years later, and academic philosophers are still making the same category errors. In fact, Information theory encountered a flat out contradiction in the categories they use and, so far, has succeeded in ignoring the issue. Since they get paid to insist their own contradictions make more sense than anyone else's, its best to just humor them. Even Wittgenstein made the same error, stressing knowledge as the measure of all things. Here he's begging the question as to what is knowledge, and refusing to address the issue of authenticity. Without authenticity, it really doesn't matter what you know or what is true.
     
  7. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed & Confused Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

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    Kant admits that knowledge begins with input from our senses, but he goes on to say that some knowledge exists that does not come from the senses.
    Knowledge of the passage of time, for example. The passage of time is not laying around somewhere to be experienced by our senses, the passage of time is experienced as we receive sensory input, but is not a part of that input.
    The same goes for the experience of space.
    Hume asks us what a motorcycle is. If we say it's a machine made of metal he asks us what is metal? If we describe metal as hard, shinny, malleable, etc. he replies that that is all sense data, where is the metal? We can't describe metal without using our senses. There is no substance separate from the experience of the sense data.
    But if we can't find substance how can we say that it supplies us with sensory data? How can we find substance that is independent from our senses?

    Kant replies that the concept of a motorcycle exists independently of it's color, weight, and shape. It exists as time passes and can have different forms and even change over time.
    But how is knowledge of this motorcycle acquired?
     
  8. wooleeheron

    wooleeheron Brain Damaged Lifetime Supporter

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    Horrible, just horrible, arguments. Hume was correct, in that knowledge is both acquired and intrinsic, but it is intrinsic to time itself, which is self-organizing, displaying particle-wave duality in everything, as the result of a universal recursion in the principle of identity. You could say our emotions reflect more of the wave-like knowledge we acquire from the world around us, but logic or thought or knowledge without the passage of time is a complete oxymoron, and every cell in our bodies has its own clocks, or we'd be dead. Words and concepts, including that of time, only have demonstrable meaning in light of the self-evident truth, while its quite easy to document how our own sense of humor can make more sense out of any logic or metaphysics in the real world. In other words, both these egg heads were arguing how our senses work, without any reference to our emotions, because their logic denies the real world exists.
     
  9. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed & Confused Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

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    What do mean by knowledge is intrinsic?
    What do you mean that knowledge is intrinsic to time itself?
    What are emotions?
    How do emotions affect the primary data imputed to our senses?
     
  10. wooleeheron

    wooleeheron Brain Damaged Lifetime Supporter

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    Human vision provides an example, with the neural networks involved in vision all organizing around searching for what's missing from this picture. Shadows, for example, are the fastest, easiest, most efficient and reliable way to tell is another animal is moving. Ordinarily, shadows don't convey much information, but its precisely because they convey so little information, that they can more rapidly and efficiently convey what they do. The knowledge or data they convey can be described as "intrinsic" to the context, that there is actually light to give them a shadow.

    Our emotions convey contextual data and help us to organize our memories. Sometimes we might literally get angry and shoot ourselves in the foot, but that reflects the fact we are relying on more error prone Three Stooges logic to prioritize our memories. Without priorities, knowledge is meaningless, without art and moving poetry, there can be no logic.
     
  11. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed & Confused Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

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    I don't know that viewing shadows is the easiest way to detect motion. Shadows have no color, little form, and no depth. Where did you hear this? Can you cite some study?
    How is light being interfered by an object and then a lack of light, or rather the contrast of light verses dark, as seen by the eye sense, intrinsic? Do you mean the eye is sensitive to light? If so, so what?

    What are these emotions that convey contextual data made of? Do they have substance? How do they convey contextual data?
    Is there a difference between contextual and plain old data?
     
  12. wooleeheron

    wooleeheron Brain Damaged Lifetime Supporter

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    No, I do not teach neurology, and don't keep links. The brain is a self-organizing system, not a billiard table with balls bouncing all over the place. Your neurons don't just absorb photons, they process the data, and search for what's missing from this picture. For example, if I write, "What's **** from this picture" you can get an idea of what I'm saying. Your neurons leverage the same trick, and don't just pay attention to what the ***** contains.

    The issue is speed and efficiency, and merely looking for what missing the smallest detail can be a discerning clue. Without the context of what's missing, what it contains is misleading, because the greater context inevitably determines the identity of its own contents.
     
  13. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed & Confused Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

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    Kant believed that his a priori motorcycle is independent of what we see, hear, etc.
    Phædrus smelled a rat. There was something wrong with Western philosophies.

    He began to consider his experiences in the East to a much greater extent.
    Western logic and philosophy always presumes a separation between subject and object. Therefore Western logic can not find or be the ultimate truth, the answer must be in the East.
    As a result he left, returned to the Midwest, and found a job teaching rhetoric; the art of using persuasion, grammar, and logic in the pursuit of truth. He did this by teaching the rules of rhetoric and having his students apply them to their writings. But it never worked the way it was supposed to. The best writers were always the ones that ignored the rules.
    One day another professor, Sarah, walked by his office and asked if he was teaching quality. He said he was.
     
  14. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed & Confused Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

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    He asked his classes,
    You can define what a quality motorcycle is by listing its attributes. It has good brakes, gets good mileage, needs infrequent repairs, looks good, drives well, etc. But you are defining attributes of a quality motorcycle, not quality itself. A quality rose has completely different attributes, but still has the same quality! It seemed quality couldn't be defined. You could list attributes of quality, name quality products, but you couldn't isolate quality from things that exhibit quality.
    The study of quality is called esthetics, or the nature of what is good and beautiful. But if you can't define quality, or what is good and bad, you can't have a branch of knowledge called esthetics.

    Then a greater problem arose, if you can't define Quality, how can you know it exists?
     
  15. wooleeheron

    wooleeheron Brain Damaged Lifetime Supporter

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    Qualities are more context dependent, such as the "air quality", which makes his argument merely begging the question. His complete lack of awareness of Contextualism and linguistic analysis makes his book painful to read. Its like the guy is attempting to use logic and metaphysics developed during the dark ages to explain Asian philosophy. You can see the same effect in translations of the Tao Te Ching, with western missionaries often being the first to translate the text a century or so ago, and having no clue what to make of it.
     
  16. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed & Confused Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

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    If you can't define Quality, how can you know it exists?

    The answer was that if Quality was removed from the world, the world couldn't function in a normal manner.
    If there is no difference between "the good" and "the bad" art, poetry, and sports would not exist.
    Food would be reduced to whatever supplies basic nutriments, and those nutriments might or might not be sufficient.
    Wearing apparel would be functional at best, beauty, song, and dance would disappear.
    With this new insight Phædrus confronted the English faculty at the college in which he was teaching, pronouncing them "square".
    In return they asked:
    If Quality existed in the objects we observe, why can't we detect it with scientific instruments?
    If it resides in the mind of the observer...then it could be anything at all depending on how the observer describes it.

    He was on the Horns of a Dilemma.
    Either Quality was objective or subjective, no matter which he chose he was impaled....

    [​IMG]

    Phædrus could claim that the objectivity of Quality could not be detected by science, or he could claim that subjective Quality is not "anything you like."
    ....Or he could deny that there were only two choices, subject or objective Quality.

    Or....he could advance rhetorical arguments.
     
  17. jagerhans

    jagerhans Far out, man. Lifetime Supporter

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    It is one of those books that everyone and his buddy recommend , so I read that but it was back in the nineties.
     
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  18. wooleeheron

    wooleeheron Brain Damaged Lifetime Supporter

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    Humor is an obvious quality he lacks, because quality is context dependent, and the only requirement to observe quality changing into quantity, is to change the context. In quantum mechanics, which he certainly never studied, sometimes you can treat a group of particles as if they were one particle, because what is a quality and what is a quantity is merely context dependent, making it easy to document. By merely examining the Big Picture, and questioning the validity of his two thousand year old logic and metaphysics, he might have actually found the answers he was looking for.
     
  19. oldguynurse

    oldguynurse Lifetime Supporter Lifetime Supporter

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    meagain, your post of Oct 20 (excluding the quoted sections), was superbly well-written to describe scientific, logical thinking. A 'de-quotationed' version should be posted in many 'general-audience' type threads here on Hip.

    One can, and many do, wander afield with verbiage, and split hairs ad infinitum, but it was a well-put statement. Kudos.
     
  20. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed & Confused Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

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    Thank you, but I'm only paraphrasing.

    [​IMG]
     

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