Your Beliefs Are Yours!

Why do you insist on spelling my name incorrectly?

I would say that an individual that values life cannot righteously say that it is moral to destroy a living being (human or nonhuman). That being said I would consider it immoral to have an abortion after 6 weeks when brain activity appears.

Please don't label me a social conservative, that to me, would be worse than death.

 

I dont insist on spelling your name Thumbotico.. I thought thats what it was.
Thumbontico,
I have no idea why you would determine anything 'immoral' or 'moral' anyway.
Including destroying a living being.

Having said that - I dont by into this Americocentric (or other cultures version) of 'Social Conservative' or 'Fiscal Conservative' .. 'as if' .. we all have to place ourselves in these pre-conceived groupings.

You would even be surprised how many narrow-minded little drones in these forums have 'picked' some American Media Designated 'Label' or 'Box' for ME.

In my case, I think social liberalism (as we see it today) is as FASCIST and Narrow-Minded 'Fundy' hypocrisy as can be!

I happen to think the 'Free martket Capitalists' are the most disgusting group of humans on the planet.

Im not even close to fitting in with those 'Moral Majority' types and quite frankly I wouldnt bother turning around to meet your Jerry Falwells.
... Mind You - I will give him credit for one of the most sensible and fantastic quotes of the year [of which you deliberately shortened]:

"But you've got to kill the terrorists before the killing stops. And I'm for the president to chase them all over the world. If it takes 10 years, blow them all away in the name of the Lord."

 

Right is whatever has been done, wrong is the possibility of alternate action that has never been done. People are made (in the sense created) to do what they do, even murderers and faithless idiots.

 

I dont agree with you Kharakov.

People certainly have the Free Will and ability to choose.

Jesus would certainly disagree with you too (presumably for much more enlightened reasons than I do).
He certainly appealed to people to make a choice and to decide.
"Who do you say I am?"

He seems to be under the impression people CAN choose.
It might be true that He ALSO knows what choice they will eventually make, but, that does not change the fact they can choose.

In anycase.. Thumbonotico does not believe in any moral 'right' or 'wrong' in any 'real' sense.
Only based on popular opinion and majority.
Correct me if Im wrong?
This seems to be what you have indicated in your posts?

 

Well, I hope you didn't bet much.
You bet wrong.
Brocktoon, specifically what about my faith do you consider wacky and weird?
It makes equally as much sense, logically, as your 'faith' does.

 

I am not irked, and have no problem. My feeling is a man's view is totally meaningless since his words about abortion, never have to be backed up. Sure, say you're anti-choice forever. You and I will never know if you'd stand by them since you know you don't have to. It makes it too easy to criticize, when one is safely doing so with the full knowledge no one can make you back it up.
Your opinion is sincere, and your point taken, but it is an opinion applying only to others and not to yourself, which makes your point moot.

 

For starters.. Abortions are NOT something 'Women' do (as if they were all a group with some concensus).
Just as many women are Anti-Abortion as any other grouping of people would be.

Secondly.
You may not have noticed this but ALL BABIES ARE MADE UP FROM ONE MAN AND ONE WOMAN.
A MAN always has 50% to do with that baby being in that womb in the first place.

Thirdly - HALF of all babies being aborted ARE MALE BABIES OF WHICH YOU AND I (MEN) Avoided but could have been through.

and for a bonus 4th point: MOST of the Doctors pulling Fetus's out of wombs ARE MEN.

In any case... IF the baby IS a Human Being, then gender has absolutely nothing to do with this anyway.
A female judge and jury can send a MAN to Jail for killing another MAN and nowhere do we concern ourselves with whether the Judge should keep shut about it 'because he can never be a man'

 

You sir, are a fool. Your last point re: female jury shouts your folly.
You assume that your example is the same, it is absolutely not so.
Abortion is something a man will never have performed on his body.
Your stupid judge and jury point is totally irrelevent, since the 'crime', can be just as easily committed by either sex.

You clearly want a return to the old back alley coathanger days.
How loving.

 

You are wrong Brocktoon concerning my belief as usual. My view is that morality has no ultimate truth. That is no objective source from which it is certainly clear. That is not to say that morality cannot be agreed upon and practiced within a willing society of individuals. Quite to the contrary about the popular opinion bit. Morality is completely subjective.

 

You just re-explained my intended point back to me.

IF indeed the baby is a living human being - then gender has absolutely nothing to do with it.

As you so cleverly derived from my example - trying a murder case has zero to do with the genders of ANYthing.

Whether its a MAN killing the baby OR a woman makes no difference to MEN or WOMEN who disagree with it.

To make it even clearer - IF they did find a way to get men pregnant - it still would not change anything.
A Woman could just as easily be rightfully upset about a MAN aborting his MALE baby, regardles if she is a WOMAN or not.
Her being a woman has NOTHING to do with her rightful concern about a human life (male of female).

You mean where people pulled the baby out of the womb using a coathanger instead of using forceps?

I guess I didnt specify that Im not just disgusted by smashing the babies skull first (what abortion clinics do) THEN pulling it out with a metal forceps - IM ALSO, disgusted by people using coathangers.

A better question is - why would you have any problem with using a Coat hanger instead of forceps?

Did someone threaten you.. they said 'Either you let me do this or I will do something even worse to the fetus"

Wow.. Give me your lunch money.. or else I will do something even WORSE after school!

 

I was right as usual.
This is what I suggested you believed in.

Of course, its only your subjective opinion this is true, but Im sure you will be continuing to have faith.

At least we are clear on what you believe is absolute truth (that there is no absolute truth except that one)

 

His point is, I believe, that women will always have abortions whether its legal or not.

I wonder, if a Mother and a Father are best for raising a child (Christian arguement against same-sex adoption) how does Neither stack up? That would be the result of placing a child in an orphanage, inevitable without abortion.

 

Being Adopted is not such a bad thing folks.

anyway.. IF you believe that murder is 'wrong' (and again.. this might not apply to you Thumbontico) - then there is no debate about adoption, foster children, orphanages etc etc.

You cant do what is wrong, and while growing up in an orphanage is not always 'great fun' - its not being killed either.

So my question is - Should we visit an Orphanage and call the children into a room so you can tell them they would be better off if they were never born?

Do you want to tell them that?

 

The title of this thread made me think of something I read in the Quran:

1 Say: O disbelievers!
2 I worship not that which ye worship;
3 Nor worship ye that which I worship.
4 And I shall not worship that which ye worship.
5 Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
6 Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion.

Not very relevant perhaps, but it sort of explains my view on religion. Except for the fact that I don't see people who have another faith as disbelievers.

 

That is not the issue Brocktoon.

 

Good.

Some people are too stupid to realize that the circumstances they are in mold their decisions.

Jesus certainly would not.

The choice being offered is part of what influences the outcome.

So what then? Offering the choice obviously has the outcome that God intended- so whatever you choose it is what God intended for you to choose. Or do you believe that God did not create you to pick correctly?

 

If you believe that murder is wrong, than you have judged God for all the deaths that have occured since the beginning of time. Good Job! I am sure God is glad that you disagree with God's plan (because this is part of God's plan).

 

Kharakov.. IF God is going to USE all the free will choices to ultimately work his plan (and we seem to agree on this inevitable conclusion) this does NOT require or need choices to be predestined for the 'decision makers'.

People plainly and simply have free will to choose right and wrong.

Jesus may very well have known the 'Good Thief' would choose to honour God... but this does NOT mean Christ needed, insisted or willed that choice to be made.

His ultimate plan would have 'used' either choice to His fulfillment and glory yes, but this does NOT NECESSITATE Influencing or 'predestining' the Thiefs Choice.

I cant understand why that is a problem for you?

 

Why do so many people bow down to this 'GOD' as we know it?...When he is not so superior, so great, so loving in return...take a look at the world around you...if you believe he created this world...then you must to believe that he is an evil man.

 

A better question is - why would you have any problem with using a Coat hanger instead of forceps?
Did someone threaten you.. they said 'Either you let me do this or I will do something even worse to the fetus"

Posted by Brocktoon

I prefer the legal, clinic-based abortion over the unregulated, coat hanger days, becuz unlike you, i find the life and safety of the woman very important.
other than the miniscule threat presented by your oft attempted character assassination of me, no.