young mom's

Yeah.. it is extremely interesting... and I think it's very hard to come up with one sufficient solution. Let's say there would be a law where the father can claim the unborn child and thus forcing the woman to carry on with the pregnancy (like a surrogate mom.. so the dad would pay for the medical bills and the bigger clothes etc). There is a good chance that some women don't want this option and try to abort illegaly. Also, what if after giving birth, the woman decides that she wants to be a part in the childs life afterall?

I think if you really really want the best for a child, then there should be an option for such a law (fatherly authority of the unborn child).. since having 1 loving parents is better than getting aborted.

But.. things aren't that easy.. I do fully agree however that this is an option that should be investigated more. As a previous poster said: males are capable of a whole range of emotions as well and they should be heard when it comes to their own flesh and blood. A child is genetically 50/50 when it comes to it's parents.. and ofcourse.. it grows in the female.. but then again, what are 9 months on a complete human life?

Interesting.. fascinating.. difficult..

 

Heres to the guys that step in and help raise kids who are not of their blood. The dudes that marry mothers with children, and have no resentment about it. And the guys that adopt. My Dad was one.

 

So was mine!

 

that's my dave, too. he couldn't be prouder of his boy, tyler. he's a great kid.

 

The only thing I can say that both men and women can be blamed for is allowing society to reach such a low. Of course, each sex is responsible for the actions of that sex where a difference between the sexes is the problem. I blame women for making the idea that women can raise children by themselves a universal for young women. I blame men for watching that happen.

There are a million things that men can be blamed for, there are a million that women can be blamed for.

On the issue of the cause of the ambiguity of the fathers, unfortunately, the blame falls on the feminist movement.

Again, though, there are many factors to consider.

Well not really. Modesty goes far beyond keeping legs closed. There is a word used to describe the action of keeping that baby machine shut down. Celibacy. Modesty extends past the physical. We’re talking about the feminist revolution and the effects on the family. I mean modesty in that sense. Where women have to disregard the oppression of the roles and priorities that are a necessary part of child rearing. That is the modesty I am talking about, not women keeping their legs closed.

I am not saying that a women’s liberation movement was not in order. I haven’t commented on why the movement should have happened, or how it should have been different, as those are for another thread. I have only commented on what happened, how, and the effects [all of them] it had on our society.

I hope now that you see I wasn’t talking about women giving up and taking it like they had. I am talking about how the fight for women’s rights extended into the one place that no human conception should. I have articulated what importance should be placed on the delicate balancing act between a mother and father. That importance was ignored, or perhaps inadvertently missed, and the destruction of the family and the ambiguity of the father are the results.

That’s all I’m talking about. Don’t take me further than I am willing to go.

Another time.

A bien tot.

 

I wish I could have been here for all of the time that this thread has been alive. I've just returned after a two week absence and with all that I'm behind on now, I've only had time to skim through all of the new posts in this thread.

Whether or not any minds were changed through this discussion, it at least can be said that the discussion has been thorough and that now maybe some healing can begin. I'm back here because I believe in the importance of this topic. I'm grateful to all of the posters here for taking the time to debate this important issue as it affects the most innocent among us. I am however especially grateful to OSF for sharing his vast knowledge and attempting to enlighten the ignorant among us...myself included.

No matter what your position is on this topic, the bottom line is that this is our world now. Whatever triumphs or mistakes our parents or grandparents may have made, it's up to all of us now to shape our society into the way that we want it to be. Education to understand how we got to where we are, is probably the first step in that process.

BTW-before I left, I noticed some OSF bashing...something about his justifying being a deadbeat dad. As I said, I skimmed through the posts made since my departure and I still didn't notice whether OSF has said if he has any children. Do You?

 

Hehehehehe... funny

Wait.. you are being sarcastic here aren't ya?

 

From what I've read here, it appears as though OSF has spent a great deal of time researching the topic. The fact that not everyone agrees with his opinions doesn't change that. The fact that an educated person is willing to share their time and their knowledge in an attempt to make the world a better place, should be applauded, just as I applaude you and all other posters who are interested enough in the issue, to join in the discussion, and share your views. How else will we ever effect a change without discussion, disagreement, and compromise?

 

Well.. I'm not saying OSF doesn't make any sense.. but what I read by him in this thread as well as in others is that he has a tendency make extremely long posts and that he has to explain himself over and over to everyone.. it just blogs threads, even though he make a good effort. A lot of people here use fewer words to make themselves perfectly clear in only a few posts and I applaud that, because that's what keeps discussions clear. I'm kinda having the feeling that OSF likes being somewhat 'vague' to startle things a little (a lot of females here reacted pretty strong to his vagueness about feminism..).. but maybe it's just a personal thing between him and me.. some people (even if it is through the internet) have a 'vibe' that doesn't 'click' with mine.. that's ok.. each to their own.. and I do appreciate his effort, don't get me wrong. But I just don't think he's any better than any other user in this forum.. and although he uses lots of words.. I can't really say that he's 'researching topics' for such a great deal like you say.. it's not like he's bombarding us with facts and prove now is he? He just has an elaborate opinion.

But before I go on a long rant here as well: I don't have a problem with him.. I just see no reason at all to single him out and praise him.. not at all.

 

I think that you enjoy debating, Velvet. That's O.K. I enjoy it as well. However, in an effort to further this discussion, I'll happily provide my justifications for praising OSF over you, privately, if you like.

But really, Is it that important? Aren't our energies better spent figuring out how to come together? Isn't that what this thread should be about?

 

Hey.. wow.. I'm not in for personal gain here.. I couldn't care less if someone was picked 'over me'.. I was just pointing out that if there's picking going on, I wonder why it should be OSF.. personally.. I would choose other people. This is not about me! Sorry if I gave that impression.

And I agree.. let's get back ontopic.. where do you stand on the matter?

 

If the matter is the fact that there are lots of single moms, then I say that we need to figure out why that is and work to correct it.

I've always thought it was because we lived in a throw away society, where no one is any longer willing to work at keeping a relationship alive. The prevailing attitude being that we'll just get a new one. OSF's post revealed that there are other theories.

 

And how do you feel about those specific theories?

 

I feel as though OSF's theories are as valid as yours or mine. OSF's theories make me realize that there are other possible explanations for the same problem. However, they're all just theories and they can be debated endlessly.
I know enough to know that I don't know everything. I'm willing to accept help from those more knowlegable than myself. I have my own special gifts that I can contribute in return.

The only question really is how are we to conduct ourselves. We are the only ones who have control over our actions. With greater knowledge, we're able to make better decisions. As I've previously stated, it's up to us to make our society the way we want it to be. I feel that society is a reflection of it's members. Fucked up society=fucked up members.

I believe that the fact that I'm single in my mid-forties with no children, and that this is not the way I envisioned my life, simply illustrates the fact that I suffer from the same ill as has affected a great deal of the rest of society. Regardless of the reasons why, we've forgotten how to make strong relationships, let alone strong families. Now what are we going to do about it? I would rather see a discussion of how to change things. I have my ideas.

***Fucked up society member stepping off my soapbox.

 

I was going to let this thread slip into the depths of hipforum but I have come to think of this thread as my little Interbaby.





Hey Velvet are you still sour on me because of that gay marriage thread? Holy hold-onto-a–grudge batman!

I can answer as quickly as most [even though I don’t think it is enough for people to see what I really mean] and I will.

You suck.











Mr.HippieInMyHead,

Thanks for the kind words.

Let’s hear em!

 

hehehehe

Thanks for asking....

My issue is with the break-up of the traditional family, and this is Velvet's Young Moms thread. So out of respect to her, I'll post my thoughts in a new thread, shortly.

 

I look forward to it.

 

I have read all the posts (I deserve a medal or something for that), and I fail to see how feminism has contributed significantly to the breakup of the traditional family. Single parents today are not so because of women pursuing ambitious careers. No. Women who are more educated and career-minded (i.e. those who benefited from the feminist movement) are simply not having children! That is the effect of education of women, less children.

Most single parents are poor -59%. They are, by and large, single women stuck with children. They aren't women CEOs. They go from job to low-paying job, which they lose time and again when they can't get child care, their car breaks down, or they have to stay home with the child and are fired because they have a job that offers no sick pay or health benefits. This is the reality. Single parenthood is not usually a choice. It is a situation that is usually not planned for. Unless you are a rich celebrity who chooses to raise a child alone. Well, they can afford to. Most people can't, it is a struggle.

I suppose OSF would know though right? Since he's done so much research. Can he tell us about PMS too, or how about childbirth?
Sorry buddy, but some things require more than "research", like real life experiences. I think the women dealing with this each and every day know more about it than you despite your efforts to suggest otherwise with your rambling and hazy posts.

 

The problem isn't feminism at all. The opposite actually. While women were freeing themselves from those roles imposed on them by our patriarchal society, men never learned to pick up the slack. Most men are stuck with the traditional patriarchal model of how a man should act. Both sexes are to blame for that one, though. Men for not being more flexible (though I wonder if there isn't something about having a y chromosome that might contribute to that). And women for continuing to be primarily sexually attracted to the old stereotypical male, and also not teaching their male children to take on their share of traditional "womans work."Can't blame feminism, it's a natural part of societal evolution. It was bound to happen eventually.

 

Feel free to rant and post many many words here.. since I'm leaving on vacation today for two weeks And yes, I do suck (as you may have read in one of the threads about how to give a bj) and I do it with great pleasure and skill.. good of you to notice *grin*

Anyways.. seems you have found a compagnion in your battle here, enjoy the company.. I'm off