You might not know that America, but we do.

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Balbus, May 17, 2004.

  1. Balbus

    Balbus Members

    "does not represent the America that I know"

    There has been much discussion over here about those words of Bush.

    The obvious comments came first that of cause he wouldn’t ‘know’ that side of America he was born to a rich well connected family and went to Yale. Also Bush like many others in his admin were able to get out of going to war (even into getting of the military altogether).

    Then people began to examine this viewpoint and found that many Americans shared it, as far as they were concerned the things that happened in Iraq did not represent how they saw themselves or America.

    The thing is as many over here have pointed out to for many people in the world the offhand brutality shown was exactly how America is seen.

    It is in US history. The massacre of the native population, the particularly brutal form of slavery, the casual violence shown to black people in an apartheid system that only came to an end some 40 years ago. A brutal prison system (mainly inhabited by blacks) that practices the same treatment meted out to the unfortunate Iraqis. The execution of the mentally ill and retarded. The widespread belief in social Darwinism with it’s belief in survival or death. Its peoples indifference to the many brutal regimes its governments have supported. And the treatment handed out to ordinary Iraqi people. A country where such high levels of gun deaths is accepted as normal.

    There seem to be many theories being put forward for this state of affairs, ignorance, delusion, hypocrisy, a mixture of all three. What do you think?

     
  2. LickHERish

    LickHERish Senior Member

    Actually Balbus, racial discrimination and the two tiered system of opportunity and privilege is still very much with us in present day America. What happened 40 years ago and since has simply been an evolving repackaging and institutionalisation of the racism which met the original civil rights protestors square in the face back in the day.
     
  3. Again Balbus...the British critisizing the US is the pot calling the kettle black.

    those who live glass houses should not cast stones.

    the US has a history of oppression and slavery and all that...we have 200 years of actual US legally-committed oppression and hate..England has probably near 1000 years of oppression and tyranny.

    and before anyone says....400 years of US blah blah blah...the actual USA is only about 220-something years old..before that..we were a BRITISH colony filled with people running from religious persecution oh...and indentured servents and criminals from Europe.

    It was Europeans that landed on this slab and began killing the natives...it was Europeans that started and ran the African Slave trade long before the US even became an independent country.

    it wasnt until our ragtag band of colonials kicked the snot out of the British Troops did we we become America.



    I'm soooo sick and tired of England and France and Germany bitching about the USA and trying to use our history as fodder to say we suck when all those countries have longer and much more violent and oppressive histories then the USA.


    I dont ever just start bashing England for their past tyranny in India or South Africa or Hong Kong or Northen Ireland..I dont bash them for sending their undesirable citizens here and then make oppressive laws against those people.

    I dont bash France for all their ridiculous historical blunders.I dont say that the French suck because they put children in the guillotine.

    As for Germany....well....I think they have been forgiven for the whole 10 million murdered thing.




    My point is....I wish people would shut up already and quit using the past as excuses to put down others.

    all the western countries suck...we all suck equally.Get over it and move on.

    it's time to start working on correcting our futures rather then bringing up the past because 500,000 years of human history is filled with evil and hate.
     
  4. Jozak

    Jozak Member

    That is just an utter lie. No one is "repackaging" institutionalized racism, give me a break. Yes, there are pockets of racism everywhere in this nation, by every group of people. I have encountered just as many racist blacks as I have whites. This country has made A LOT of progress since the 1960's, and as time goes on things continue to get better. There will always be some racism, becasue there will always be ignorant people, but for the most part, this country is not racist like you are making it out to be.
     
  5. Eugene

    Eugene Senior Member

    Okay, Jozak, are you chezch born or are you still living there. And yes, there is still racism in this country, it is getting better, but it is still there.

    And props to otter, the brittish have no right to criticize us for our history, I mean name one other group of people who have so thoroughly fucked over so many people in history.
    But the sun set on the Brittish empire, just like it will on the American.
     
  6. LickHERish

    LickHERish Senior Member

    Jozak, you obviously do not bother to undertake any significant research into the wide gap which still exists between minority education and opportunity and that afforded to the vast percentage of white America.
     
  7. you live in Brussels...which is in Belgium..so I'm wondering why you care anyways about the plight of minorities in the USA especially with all the racism and classism happening in Europe....or are all the people in Belgium so busy bathing in diamonds that they can easily ignore all the drama there?

    yes..minorities had it rough about 30 or 40 years ago....so did women...and the poor(regardless of race) have it tough still.

    But America is not the only country that has racial problems or these huge gaps in things like education and wages.

    it exists in every country run by rich white men.

    and right now....women of every race have it worse still then men of every race.

    here in the USA...a white woman still only makes $.75 to every man's dollar..this includes black and hispanic men.and this is in a country with unions for most jobs.I cant even imagine what kinda crap the women in other countries without union support put up with.


    everyone bitches about the USA...."OMG! the USA is horrible, their coloreds(as some Euros and old southerners still call them)are still experiancing wage gaps!!! This is a worse crime then infanticide in China."


    everyone bitches at the USA because we are the easiest target because we have leaders that wont shut their mouths.

    everyone bitches about the USA and ignores the atrocities happening elsewhere...because no matter how many baby girls India sells into sex slavery....the USA is still the worst country ever!

    no body ever picks on China..despite their human rights violations record...why?

    because they have been around for 7000 years and gave us neato stuff like noodles and paper and Bruce Lee.



    has anyone ever seen one of these uber-UShaters post about the evils in China??? I havent.


    I hate Bush too...he's worse then Satan. I would rather eat the moldy maggoty shit that comes from Jerry Falwell's rotten colon then go through another 4 years of Bushit.

    But I refuse to be a hypocrit and point fingers at a country where I'm allowed to vote(as a woman) and I dont have to worry that some Maoist freak is gonna seize my newborn daughter and drown her because..I can only have one child and boys are the preferred.

    I refuse to call out the bad points of one country without mentioning that bad in others.


    The USA sucks...England sucks...China sucks...France sucks....the world fucking sucks!!


    so Lickherish.....what's you solution to solving all the suckiness in the world right now???
     
  8. Jozak

    Jozak Member

    No, I am American. My family immigrated here. I already said there is racism here, there is racism EVERYWHERE, that's my point. I am not saying we shouldn't work to get rid of it, but on the whole, most Americans, white, black, asian, hispanic, are not racists.

    By the way, it's Czech ;)
     
  9. Jozak

    Jozak Member

    That has nothing to do with a minority of whites being racist. The majority of white people in this country are not racist. There are racist black people, but I don't see you fighting for the poor whites in Appalachia and coal mining areas of the southern US. either. So instead of trying to ignorantly deduct what I have and have not researched, go do some brain work of your own.
     
  10. Not to mention that the vast majority of white america does not have all these opportunities.

    the vast majority of white america lives in the midwest and south where the economies are agriculturally based and suffering heavily from government-supported corporate farms and mining industries.

    and not to mention the cultures of the Ozarks and Appalachias which are third worlds in the richest country in the world.

    these people dont have food,medical care,clean water...most are born and die without ever having been legally documented as existed.

    when I did youth missionary work..we went to the Allegeny's(sp?)..I met girls my age who had never seen a bra before...NEVER SAW A BRA BEFORE WHILE LIVING IN AMERICA.

    can you imagine that? and they are white!! not black, not cuban or puerto rican or japanese....they are white.


    yes..there are actual white people in america so poor and cut off and broke down that they are enthralled with toilet paper.they cant read or write..most never attended any sort of school.


    where are their advocates??
     
  11. Pressed_Rat

    Pressed_Rat Do you even lift, bruh?

    The British are in no position to soley put our country down. They should try taking a look at their own first.

    Fools.
     
  12. Balbus

    Balbus Members

    Very interesting.

    People are not arguing that American society is not brutal only that other countries history has had brutality in it. The thing is only one line in my post was about American history the rest was about the US today so let us put aside history for a moment.



    A brutal prison system (mainly inhabited by blacks) that practices the same treatment meted out to the unfortunate Iraqis.

    That is well documented. Britain’s prisons are very different.

    The execution of the mentally ill and retarded.

    We don’t execute people and especially not the mentally ill.

    The widespread belief in social Darwinism with it’s belief in survival or death.

    True

    Its peoples indifference to the many brutal regimes its governments have supported.

    True

    A country where such high levels of gun deaths is accepted as normal.

    True.

    **

    As to the history thing it’s the hypocrisy, the societies of Europe at the time believed that humans were not equal. American history more than most is full of it’s own ‘worthiness’, the problem is that it did as several people pointed out acted very brutally. The thing is that so many Americans tell the rest of the world that they are different and the fact that so many Americans seem to think it true was the point of my post.

    The fact is that your arguments seem to indicate that many of you know that many of the things that your leaders say the US stands for are in fact hypocritical at the best.

    But then there is a always the hint of chauvinism

    It was Europeans that landed on this slab and began killing the natives...it was Europeans that started and ran the African Slave trade long before the US even became an independent country.

    it wasnt until our ragtag band of colonials kicked the snot out of the British Troops did we we become America.

    With the very important assistance of French troops and French ship without which the colonists would probably lost the war and their hope of independence.



     

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