Yes, They Still Exist.

Okay I have a few questions though. Where do you live right now? Do you work full time?

 

I don't think it's right for me to put stereotypical roles onto a male anymore than I want him doing that to me.
I've never been with a guy because of his money, or career choice. I've never expected them to be anything more than themselves. The idea is to grow together.
I've also decided that motherhood simply isn't for me. If I was interested in it, or thought I'd make a good mom, I'd reconsider. Better to make a decision based on the facts than just going with what society dictates.
I don't feel I have a right to anything I can't earn myself.
I have supported myself, & now I'm with a good man who works hard that contributes because he wants to.
I've also declined alimony from my marriage. (I'm seperated)
Do what is right for yourselves, not what anyone else wants.
If you want to be a soccer mom, cool, be the best soccer mom you can be, & more power to you.
If you don't want the stereotypical life, fuck what the plastic clone people say, don't do it.
(this is in response to the original post...I have no idea what's going on in this thread otherwise)

 

lol just because I do not like war doesn't mean I don't want a big engagement ring, a nice house, well dressed kids, the ability to stay home and be an attentive parent. I don't get your correlation.

 

Sorry if anybody misrepresented me, but
1.) I do not HATE money, it is unfortunately a necessary part of life in this society.
2.) I do not LIKE to steal from the grocery store, but when I've paid all the bills, my bank balance is $3.45, the paintings are not selling, and the paycheck is still a week away ... well, I still have to eat.
3.) I do not stereotype men -- I realize that there are probably a lot of really nice rich guys, and in fact I did date one for a while. (We broke up when he found out he was gay ...) And yeah, I know that a lot of poor guys are pretty nasty too.

My point (as I stated in my disclaimer) was not to bash cash or to bash ANYTHING or ANYONE -- it was to argue the point of view presented by this girl : That women are not relly anything if they are not hitched to a high-earning man, etc.

By the way, please rest assured that I am not overly negative; nor do I wear rose-colored glasses about anything.
Oh, and also -- please don't assume that because I am only nineteen, I don't know how life works ... that is not nice OR true. I might be a wee bit messed up, and yeah I can be overly optimistic sometimes, but I AM awfully grown up for my age.

Sorry if anything I present is unclear ... I feel kinda bad, because a good vocabulary doesn't always mean clear articulation. :/

 

i think a lot of people took my post wrong. It wasn't the fact that he had money that was the issue... it was the fact that he didn't UNDERSTAND me or my values.

The $100 flowers weren't about me... I would be happier with dandilions or cheap lilies. If he had bothered to listen to what I actually liked, he would have known that. The fact that they were being sent to work was also, not about me... it was about him... it was about how wonderful the other women thought he was for sending me expensive flowers. I didn't want expensive flowers, but the other women sure thought he was wonderful.

I don't like or wear fancy jewlery. I do own some, but it's antique stuff that was my grandmas and great grandmas... i keep it in a lock box and only wear it on fancy, fancy occasions. Every day, I have my hands covered in paint and plaster... I smash tiles, I use strong glues...I do welding. I had never given him the impression that I would want a 4 carat diamond ring for everyday wear... in fact, i expressely told him that such a thing would be wasted on me. He bought it anyway.

And while he was driving a BMW, I was thinking about staving children in Africa and the 3 girls my monthly moneys were keeping in school in the Philippines.

So... it wasn't so much the money.... it was more a MAJOR difference in morals, in beliefs and values. He valued money, things and making people jealous. I value value, simple things and making people happier...

Understand? I didn't break things off with him because of the money... i broke things off because of the changes the money caused in him.

My husband makes good money. Not the crazy money that my ex made, but enough for us to live on if I didn't want to work. The difference is that he has never tried to change my values... he enjoys my weird dancing around the house, gets need to jump in rain puddles and loves my paint splattered everyday wear.

 

that's awesome for you but I do not think it is fair for all of you to knock us girls who want somone traditional, that is what this whole thread was about;right? 'Yes, They Still Exist'? Close mindedness is close-mindedness. I don't go around telling my friends 'hey you are silly for dating him, he's never going to make a responsible husband' but I constantly get made fun of for being high mateinence or picky. I respect other people's lifestyles and choices but in doing so I think mine should be respected as well.

And I have a rule if a guy does not send flowers with in the first two months it's over. If he doesn't care enough about me to figure out what I want and put in a little bit of money and effort than what the fuck am I doing wasting my time.

 

Wow.

 

Yep, my thoughts exactly...

 

Suncatch: Sorry if it seems I misrepresented you in anyway, my apologies... I just tend to get a little fiesty with things such as this.

It drives me nuts, not solely because of tradition, but because of the shallowness that usually seems to accompany it. If a woman wants to take on a traditional role, and be a stay at home mom/housewife...that's cool with me; but when women start expecting gifts and nice houses and clothes and what not... it just disgusts me. To me, that's not what a marriage or committment should be about, it should be about love.

"And I have a rule if a guy does not send flowers with in the first two months it's over. If he doesn't care enough about me to figure out what I want and put in a little bit of money and effort than what the fuck am I doing wasting my time."
That really did it for me. That just blew your whole point, lynsey. I could have seen your point of view and was starting to, up until that last little factoid. Sick, it made me want to throw up in my mouth a little. I'm pretty sure a guy can still care about you without buying you flowers...

Beggers can't be choosers, hunny. I don't care if you have 5 years on me, don't talk to me like I'm a little kid and that I don't know what's going on in the world.

YES, I realize you need money to survive, and live, and have shelter... and NO, I wouldn't allow my fiancee to sit on the couch all day while I'm at work, but I'm also not going to force him into college or a lucrative career. If my fiancee was perfectly happy working at McDonald's, I would let him be, and love him all the same. As long as he is making an effort to work with me as a TEAM...

By the way lynsey, even though it shouldn't matter to you, yes, I do have a full time job, and I make 10 dollars an hour, and my boyfriend also works full time and we're moving out together in the summer. And I'm really happy with it, I can pay my own bills, and if he ever needs help paying something I help him with it...and if I ever need his help, I know he'll help me too. I don't like having men pay for things for me, and I never did, since I started dating. I always insisted on paying for myself, or if they paid for me, I would pay the next time for the both of us...

To me, that's a relationship, because you're working with each other. There was a long period of time where my hunny was unemployed...and I paid for a lot of things, and yes, it got irritating at times...but it would never make or break our relationship for me... I still loved him all the same, and I knew that because he loves me too, he would put forth the effort to find a job, and start putting less pressure on me financially...and he did. And since he got a job, he has been really good about helping me out too.

And yeah... whatever, I guess you're just a whole different kind of person than I am, because I honestly just have never been the sort of person to set up expectations like that. If my man wants to take me out, and does, then it makes it all that much more special because I wasn't expecting it. To me it takes the sweetness out of all of it when you begin to expect things...

Whatever. I never seem to agree with you, so let's just leave it at that. I'm a pretty realistic person in most respects, but when it comes to relationships and love, that's not something you should be fucking around with.... you're dealing with another person... another person with feelings, and thoughts just like you.

Sure a lot of guys get the careers that they do to impress a lady or find a wife, etc... but I also see a lot of those guys end up to be unhappy. I see a lot of those guys end up having affairs with a woman who's wild about him, rather than a woman who demands things out of him... I see a lot of those guys end up getting divorced because the more the woman starts to expect things out of him, the more she becomes disappointed and dissatisfied with the marriage. And I'm not generalising, because I realize it's not like this for EVERYONE...

But I have witnessed it firsthand, between my mother and father. He ended up building a house so big, just for her, and within a couple years after it was built... she left him, because she still wasn't getting what she wanted. [Oh and not the part about having an affair...my father was always faithful]

That whole attitude sickens me and scares me...and I've seen the emotional turmoil it has put my dad through...even BEFORE the problems started, and before the divorce... it was stressful for him to have to be working all day, and giving her all the benefits while she stayed at home with me and such. It was damaging to their marriage as well, because he never got to spend quality time with her, because he came home from work, beat, and fell asleep instantly... and ultimately was too stressed when he was awake.

And yeah, like I said, I realize it's not always that way. But, remember men have feelings too...they aren't just there for support, and gifts... they want love and respect and nurturing as well.

 

PREACH IT!

SHUT UP!

 

oh and, I have no problem respecting women who want those traditional roles... but I do have a problem having any sort of respect for a woman who thinks she should just be handed stuff on a silver platter without having to do a damn thing for it.

 

Like I said, majority of the people, maybe not you now, but probably you in the future also, will want money to live happily. That however does not mean that love is not important, it is, but money is important as well. And if this truth of life is a problem for you, thats too bad, but its the way it is unless you want to live on the streets. Also, the love can happen between any two people when you want a relationship to work, money however only happens if you are good at making it.

 

And what happens to that woman in twenty years when her rich doctor-lawyer-husband leaves her for a twentysomething never to be seen again, or drops dead and she finds out he was a poor financial planner all that time? She won't know how to support herself, or her children. MARRIAGE is a life PARTNERSHIP. You don't just go looking for someone who can haul you around for the rest of your life. Find someone who can be company while you each haul yourselves, and who can help you along when you strain yourself on the way...

 

Money sucks. Do you need money to look at the stars? Do you need money to kiss someone? Do you need money to listen to music? Do you need money to hike in the mountains? Some money is good to have, but that's not why you should find love. Make your own money.

 

Nah, you are good, I don't think you said you hate money and it makes sense where you are comng from when you say that women don't have to make it their goal in life to be hitched by a rich man. However, you should also realize that there is some truth in what your conservative friend was saying , which is money is very important in a marriage, so she is not all wrong, she is right as well .

 

I never said that money wasn't important... I realize that it is, but money should also not make or break a bond...

And if you love someone, the two of you will work together to create a comfortable financial situation for yourselves... but, I think it's a shitty deal to expect someone to do all the work, and you just get to collect collect collect.

Right, I would rather not live on the streets, but if I end up there, I have no one to blame but MYSELF. If I don't take it upon myself to find a decent job, or go to college to get a degree that can get me a decent job...that is no one's fault but my own...

If I'm not going to take care of myself enough and support myself financially enough to keep MYself off the streets then I don't deserve shit.

I also think it's pretty naive to rely on someone that much for your income and things, because believe it or not, sometimes break ups and divorce happens, whether you thought it never would or not... and if your husband decides to leave you, and your jobless...well that's your fucking fault. Should have thought about that before, and had a backup plan. It's a shitty deal to expect shit to be handed to you, and that's all I'm saying.

I don't understand how people get off thinking they can just be born and not have to work to make a living. Everyone else has to, for fucks sake.

 

Yes well, love and friendship is very important, you see marriage is a very sacred thing, you may not share this same belief but splitting away from your wife/husband for some one else is just like polygamy, I mean really if you promise in a church and say "til death do us apart", you made a promise saying "we are a couple until our deaths" and then to break away from her/him and go find some one else, and say "til death do us apart" is just ridiculous. Believe it or not, it was a good system that we had in the past, sex after marriage, marriage with out divorce etc... although it did not protect people in abusive relationships, it did prevent breaking away because "he/she has bad breath" or "We don't feel that chemistry anymore"

 

Haha... wow.

And you think I'M naive?

None of us are saying we would ever choose to get divorced, but we can't control what other people do. If one day my hunny decides he's going to leave me, does that make ME a bad person? It's not like it's someone's fault if someone divorces them.

And, by the way, not all marriages are religious, or christian, and I think it's bullshit that people find it so hard to believe that a couple might want to be married without being married under the "church of god" Please, this is 2006.

P.S. that last statement does not imply that, that it makes it more okay for someone to break that bond and get divorced... I'm just pointing out that not all marriages are religious or whatever. I'm an atheist so it kind of made me snarl.


Oh and also, I don't agree with divorce ...at all, what so ever. I know for a fact I will never even CONSIDER divorcing once I am married... But, to say that no one should be allowed to or whatever is also bullshit. There are traditional societies that still force man and wife to stay together under all circumstances....including abusive relationships. And that's just as wrong. If a guy develops alcoholism in his late 40's and starts beating his wife, it would be cruel and inhumane to say she has to stay with him....or say that she's ridiculous for divorcing him.

 

Dear Apples+Oranges,

I agree with what you say really, it makes sense when you say that women cannot just sit around and expect the man to do all the work or vice versa, however, work does not always involve making money, I am sure you know that, when you have babies in your marriage, some one has to take care of them and women usually stay at home then the man has the responsibility to make money... so really it all works out.

 

I used to be young and idealistic. Looking at the replies to this thread, and the ages of the people posting, I can see frightening similarities between you all and myself way back when. I used to think love was all it takes to make a relationship work. I married that poet, the dreamer, the alcoholic loser who couldn't keep a job. Oh, but I didn't know that last bit... or was in denial. I had no intentions of raising a family, so didn't need to find good Daddy material. I was raised in the 80's when feminism meant trying real hard to be a part of the man's world because girls can do anything boys can do. I thought financial security was meaningless. I thought women should earn their own money. I didn't yet realize that women don't earn the same money as men in the real world. I thought nothing of having to pay my own way and pulling my own weight to pay the bills. His bills. His thousands of dollars of hospital and car repair bills (he was an alcoholic, remember? they tend to crash cars, not always their own cars, but they always walk away unscathed). I loved him. I thought love would save him from his self-destructive ways. I thought my love would get through to him and we'd both get by. And he quit his minimum wage job the day we got back from our honeymoon, leaving me to pay all our bills on a waitress salary, part-time, because I was still in college! That was just the beginning of the end....


At first, divorce was not an option. I never would have married him if I wasn't planning to spend the rest of my life with him. When I left him it had nothing to do with the money. I kept the ten thousand dollars of credit card debt, since those cards were in my name (and I managed to pay it all off, all by myself, in a few year's time, too). I let him keep my 900 record albums that I had been collecting my entire life, in the hopes that he would sell them and be able to pay off some of his bills. But I got out and am much older and wiser for the lessons learned. Twelve years later, I finally was able to admit how much abuse I was suffering at his hands. Thirteen years later, my best friend told me how she had seen him strike me (I still don't remember that, but do remember everything else that happened that day, and her description exactly fits the pattern of fights we were constantly having at the time when nobody was around). And now I have yet to meet a man who has no work ethic, who will not get a job and pay his bills, who is not abusive in one way or another towards the women they claim to love. It requires much much more than love to make a relationship work. There's nothing noble in being poor, not if you don't have to be. It doesn't make you any better a woman to love a man in spite of all his flaws, because you could just as easily love a man who (in your eyes at least) is totally flawless. You can find that perfect man. Don't settle for less than that. You deserve to be treated with kindness and respect.

It doesn't take money to treat a woman right. I'm not saying that at all. But what kind of man doesn't want to provide for his woman, his potential future family? What would your grandmother say about a man like that? If you can't imagine making babies with your man, maybe you should look at why that is. What would you do if you unexpectedly came up pregnant? Twenty years from now, what would you say to your daughter if she were involved in a relationship with a man like that?