Would Christ approve of Christian hate?

This are the same christians that started the inquisition, murder the native american indians. used too own slaves plus lynching, started WWI AND WWII . Then of course on SUNDAY all the sins were washed only too start the sin on Monday thru Saturday. and almost murder the guy who discover the earth made circles around the Sun instead of viceversa .

 

Unfortunately the Bible does not support my position?
Then can you explain to me how it is that in the Old Testament prophecies it speaks of Christ coming with fire to render His anger and fury on the world.
And then we read in the Old Testament prophecies, that when Christ would come, He will be a man of sorrows, riding into Jerusalem on an ass to be put to death.

Both of these prophecies are true, and both will be fulfilled. The problem was, the Jews liked the first one, and ignored the second. They put the cart before the horse. And this is a small example of a duel prophecy.

Now if you are intrested, read Jermiah chapters 50 and 51. Most will say this is a prophecy about Babylon. Yet if you start to read the physical description given in those chapters you will find, that the description does not match the ancient city. And if you go to Revelation 17 & 18 there is more details to be found in those chapters as well. And these chapters compliment each other even though they are written in two different Testaments. You will discover that the Babylon spoken of in Revelation 17, and 18 are the same Babylon as the one spoken of in Jeremiah 50 and 51. Even some of the wording is identical. Only in Revelation 17 it refers to this Babylon, as Mystery Babylon. In Jeremiah 51 it speaks of this Babylon as dwelling on many waters. Do you think the author of Jeremiah forgot that Babylon was built in the desert. And the Babylon of Jermiah 51 is not just a city, because in chapter 51:43 it states that Babylons CITIES are a desolation. Do you think the author of Jeremiah forgot he was just talking about one city. In Jeremiah it talks about Babylons mountain of war being destroyed. The problem is, there is no mountain in ancient Babylon. Maybe the author did not know that. Then in Jeremiah it states that God would dry up Babylons sea. And there is another problem, the author must of forgot, there is no sea in Babylon. And then in Jeremiah 51:46 tells us that before Babylons destruction, the rulers of Babylon would be fighting with each other, here again, the author must of forgot Babylon only had a king.
No one is changing anything here, we are just reading what is clearly stated, and what is stated, does not match ancient Babylon. Since this prophecy is spoken of in the Book of Revelation. It would have to occure after the Book was finished. And as it turns out, Mystery Babylon, and all of its prophecies are found in a nation that exist today, and it is a perfect match.

 

I am still waiting for you to tell me why Jesus killed the fig tree.

I would also like to point out that God's days are a thousand years long as stated in Second Peter 3:8. "But beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

I would also point out, that there is great symbolism to be found in the prophecies of the Bible, and you can see this in both the Old and New Testaments prophecies. Consider the visions of dried bones in Ezekiel, or the Scarlet woman of Revelation 17. On her forehead is writen the name MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. This woman was drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus. This is symbolism.

 

Campbell, though we are coming from different and to some people irreconcilable spiritual stances, mine takes a conservative position very similar to yours in regard to abortion. In the context of this discussion, I can do nothing but praise you for handing out the bitter medicine of truth in a patient and compassionate way...but is forcing the girl to bear the child against her will, even if it is to be adopted, really the best way to deal with this horrible predicament?

 

The only way you can answer all this is by making erroneous assumptions about what I support.

Typical. If I don't revel in someone else's sufferring I must be in favor of what they're doing right?

I never said I support abortion or I think it's "the best thing".

You said "If someone tells me about a botched abortion don't expect me to feel sorry for the mother".
If you don't feel sorry for a 15 year old girl who gets raped how do you expect me to believe you'd feel sorry for the doctor? And why would you?

In other words according to your criteria if someone's a sinner that disqualifies them for your compassion.

Considerring you claim to be following a religion based on God's compassion for a world full of sinners I stand by my original statement-- twisted.

 

Campbell, I simply can't address every single issue you bring up that I disagree with, because there's just too much of it. I'd also like to point out that I don't take offense to the way you interpret the bible... but what I do find at least a little annoying is that you don't have any regard for how others interpret it. I know for a fact that you aren't going to change my mind regarding the prophecies, and I know I'll never convince you that you're wrong... even though you are
So anyways, regarding the fig tree parables, they're simply allegories relating Israel not accepting Jesus as the Messiah. Debating over the symolic nature of the fig tree would probably be a waste of time, since I'd simply want to argue that the Jews had plenty good reason to not accept Jesus as the messiah. However, that argument is a long one, and their are plenty of Jews much better equiped to debate the matter with you. I suggest you take it up with them.

Regarding how long God's days are: how long were the Jews in captivity, 70 years or 25,550,000 years (each day in that year is a thousand, right?)? How long was Jesus dead before being resurrected, 3 days or 3000 years? The symbolism that you think I don't understand is the very Peter verse in question... A day for God is as a thousand years, that's symbolism, it's not something to be taken literally.

It's entirely possible to tell when symbolism is being used. It does help to know the times in which the texts were written, and the language being used, though. In terms of Babylon, Jeremiah's account is the ancient Babylon... Jeremiah didn't forget that Babylon was in the desert, he realized that it was fed by the Tigris and Euphretes rivers. Babylon was not just a city... it was a kingdom of "many nations" (Daniel 3:1, and Daniel 4:29) which included Assyria, Chaldea, and Shinar to name a few. The "mountain of war" is symbolism. The specific phrasing used is in agreement with other biblical passages where a mountain is used to refer to a government. The "sea" that is to dry up is the river Euphretes... it was known as the sea of Babylon in antiquity.

 

I believe giving life is always better than taking it. This horrible predicament, becomes even more horrible when that same girl has to reflect on what she did to another human being. Many woman who have gone through Abortions well tell you, that for many of them, the abortion was the beginning of the guilt they will carry with them for the rest of their lives. Having a child because of a rape is horrible, but then to go and actually murder the child is even worse.

 

Nothing there I can reasonably argue with from an absolute spiritual perspective. Yes, an old girl friend of mine had had an abortion when very young and she was very unhappy with that decision...when she finally did have a child, it was extra meaningful to her.

Practically-though I don't believe abortion should be available as a birth-control or convenience option, there needs to be some legal provision remaining for choice in extreme situations...in some cases the mother might be so traumatized by rape that she could commit suicide and take out two lives.

 

The point I was trying to make was that Jesus cursed the fig tree because the fig tree represented Israel, and when Christ tells us to consider the fig tree one should, and one should consider what the fig tree represented in the past, as well as the future.

If Peters statement stating that Gods days are 1,000 years, and you say this is only symbolism.
What is it suppose to be symbolizing?

And Peter tells you in the very next verse that God is not slack concerning his promise, as some count slackness. Peter is telling us that Gods time table is different. Now when the Bible tells you days or years you understant this, but when you read in Hosea 6:2 that God will raise us up in the third day, you understand that this is Gods third day because of the passage of time, also the history of Scriptures makes plain the timing of these events.

When Jeremiah said Babylon was built on many waters it is a stretch to believe that the Tigrs and Euphretes could be considered many waters. It is also a stretch to call a sea that is going to be dried up, just a river. I can understand why the Bible makes no sense to many, especially when they take these kinds of liberties with the written Word. When God speaks about Babylons destroying mountain of war, He speaks of it literally. I will stretch out mine hand and roll thee down from the rocks, and will make thee a
burnt mountain. When the Bible speaks about Babylons government it tells you in Jeremiah 51:46 that her rulers will be fighting each other. Hear again calling Babylons destroying mountain their government, that's really over the top. If you read Jeremiah 51:55 it tells you Babylon will mount up to heaven. Did someone forget to tell the author, that Old Babylon did not have a space program? The fact is none of these prophecies were ever fulfilled, Old Babylon was never destroyed in the manner described. And the reason this Babylon is spoken of in Revelation as Mystery Babylon, is because it describes a place that did not exist yet.

 

Now you are talking out of both sides of your mouth. If you were against abortion (murder), you would not be sympathetic to those who pratice it. And again, I did not say, I did not feel sorry for her being raped. I said I did not feel sorry for her, because she conspired with a doctor to murder her child. I have a real problem with people who kill children. And if you believe that I am twisted because of my repulsion to people that pratice premeditated baby killing. So be it. I will consider that a badge of honor.

 

What an incredible crock of unmitagted, self-righteous bullshit.

You're saying if I feel sorry for a 15 year old who gets raped and has an abortion that makes me pro-abortion?

You're saying anyone who actually practices "Love the sinner, hate the sin" is talking out of both sides of their mouth?

Maybe we could communicate better if I started talking out of my ass.

Yes, actually, you did.

Bullshit. If it really bothered you that much you'd be protesting against the conditions that create an enviroment where abortion is rampant--poverty, lack of social services, lack of education, --instead of moaning about one of the symptoms, which is all abortion is.

Of course all of that would take effort and (gasp) money. All you need in order to take a stance against abortion is a holier than thou attitude and alot of hot air.

I don't hear you moaning about the kids getting blown away in Iraq or the millions of children starving to death all over the world.

I consider you twisted because of your hypocricy, which I notice you also wear as a badge of honor.

 

I did not say you were pro abortion because you felt sorry for the 15 year old girl. The reason I believe you are pro abortion, is simply because I have not once heard you say we need to stop abortion, not once have you addressed the slaughter of the innocent, and you have only voiced a sympathetic slant for those who are actually doing the killing. You stated that if such a girl dies from a botch abortion I would walk away feeling like she got what she deserved. When the botched abortion statement was made, I said I would not feel sorry for her because there is always the chance, as has happen, that the child they were trying to kill survived. Of coarse you would rather believe I was glad the girl was dead. Then you make the statement about the kids in Iraq, why stop there, what about the kids in India, China,sudan,Ethiopia,chad, somalia, ect. I'm one person, and I live in America. This nation has murdered 50 million children and counting. Seems to me, before I venture outside our borders, I need to speak up first addressing the slaughter that is going on here right now, and in our own country.

I don't know if you understand anything about Americas history in the last fifty years. But I have been here the whole time. Estimates of illegal abortions from before 1963 were believed to be around 8,000 a year. Then came the sexual revolution, and right after that, the Supream Court decesion to allow woman to have abortions. And at the same time the public school system was told to get rid of the Bibles and prayer. From that time forward abortions excelerated until we were doing one million of them a year. The America government spent more money trying to stop kids from getting pregnant after that than any nation on earth. Planned Parenthood replaced the Bible and prayer. And sex was nolonger considered sacraed, but was described to the kids as simple plumbing problem. Money will not resolve the abortion issue.
What causes abortion is a society that has lost their moral compass.This nation does not have a clue, as to the meaning of morality. Before 1963, 8,000 abortions, now one million. And the government did not have sex education before 1963. Facts don't lie, and if this nation turned back to God abortions would not be a way of life here in America. The hot air is coming from planned parent hood and people who support them. The more money they throw at that group the worse the problem got. The Christians who point out the real root cause, are resented by many, simply because they are stating the historical facts. Money will not rid a society of it's evil desires.

 

I see no problem with that interpretation. Jesus is saying to not make the mistake Israel made, and to accept him. What I don’t think is that it has anything to do with a prophecy what-so-ever.

I disagree. Peter does not say God’s days are a thousand years. He says God’s days are as a thousand years. They’re like a thousand years, they aren’t literally a thousand years. Peter says this to demonstrate that man cannot comprehend what God can accomplish in a single day, that time is insignificant to God and time does not affect His promises. I know you already understand this too, and I think using it to justify specific length of days in prophecy is an extremely weak argument.

I see I’m going to have to get more specific. If you read Xenophon, who documented Cyrus’ capture of Babylon, and also read Herodotus’ account of Babylon, this all might make a little more sense.

Regarding many waters: The reason the Tigris and Euphrates are referred to as “many waters” is because they were diverted to form many rivers throughout the city, there were canals running everywhere, which is what the Jews called “many rivers” during their captivity in Babylon (Psalm 137:1).

The sea being described is in reference to the 35 foot deep, 40 square mile lake that the Euphrates formed just outside of the city, which at the time of Cyrus’ invasion was but a marshland. Cyrus diverted the Euphrates into the lake and went under the wall where the river used to flow. This fits perfectly with the prophecy (Jeremiah 50:38).

As for the mountain: go to www.biblegateway.com and do a keyword search for “mountain” and see how many different ways the word is used to describe a kingdom.

As for Babylon not being composed of many nations/rulers, please read:
Daniel 2:48, 3:1, 4:29, 5:1, 6:1 and 4:29, as well as 2 Kings 20:12; they all say otherwise.

And last, the mount up into heaven… I think you forgot about the tower of Babel and what it symbolized, a people turning to other gods to get into heaven…

 

Many theologans that are from the conserative Biblical view believe that God's days are 1000 years long. And Peter's statement is also repeated in the Old Testament as well. In Psalm 90 it reads, "for a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night." The Bible does not waste words, and is specific in the Psalm when it reads, "are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night." The Bible would not elaborate this detail in both the Old and New Testaments unless it really ment it.
The Parable of the Fig Tree is the most important part of the prophecy. The Old Testament tells us that in the latter days the Jews would return to the land of Israel. 2000 years have passed sinced Christ died on the cross, and according to both Testaments that would equal the passage of two days in Gods time. The end of those two days would fall around the year 2033. The Old Testament tells us that God would remove His people from off the earth on His third day. Gods third day would be around the year 2034. In order for that prophecy to be true we would have to see a number of things. First we would have to see the Jews return to Israel, they would of had to of taken south Israel first, second we would have to see Jerusalem under their control as well. Third, we would have to see Jerusalems East Gate sealed. Fourth, we would have to see Israel surrounded by enemies, and fifth, the fate of Jerusalem would be the focus of world attention. As it turns out, this is exactly what we see with this contrversy getting even hotter with Irans new leader telling the world Israel should be wiped off the face of the earth. And now they are developing nuclear weapons. This is the reason Jesus said to consider the parable of the Fig Tree. And this is the reason the Old Testament states that when the Jews return to Israel, it will be in the latter days. And this is the reason the Bible tells you that in the last days perlious times will come. We are in the Latter Days. And if you believe that the literal fulfillment of all these prophecies are happening by chance, then I have some land in Flordia to sell you. Jesus fulfilled the prophecies of the Old Testament literally and the prophecies of Israel will be fulfilled literally as well.
And if you think you can call a man made lake a sea, and a mountain is a government, and man made ditches means many waters, then one could believe anything about the Bible. The tower of babel was not a mountain of war, but was to be a place of worship, where one could speak with the God's.
To believe as you do, you have to really force fit these prophecies, and they donot fit at all, unless you are willing to change the meanings of words, and ignore the literal prophecies that are being fulfilled in the day we live. Also I would point out that you must not believe these were true prophecies, because Babylon was never destroyed as the Bible describes, so I'm not sure what it is you actually do believe. Ancient Babylon still exist today, and if you were to go there, you would see Modern Babylons flag flying over Her. The American stars and stripes, for Babylon is now a base of operations for the American military.

 

Good job Campbell. you've just supplied us with the best of example of christian hate and how it works;

You're angry with me for saying that something you said was twisted.

Instead of addressing the offence directly and for what it is you make up this bullshit story about my being pro-abortion in order to be able to tell yourself that your anger comes from my having offended God rather than my having just offended your pride (as if there's any difference to you).

Yes you did because that's all I said.

No the reason you believe I'm pro-abortion is because you have to in order to continue with this game.

I have over 7300 posts in these forums. Are you telling me you've read every one? Obviously you haven't. you seldom give me much indication that you've even read the one's you respond to.

Even if you had read enough of my posts to have an opinion I could just as easily point out that I've never seen you speak out against child molestation, genocide, or sex with animals so I guess, if I want to play your game by your rules, that means you're in favor of all those things.

I have only voiced a sympathetic slant for a 15 yr old girl who gets raped. One inividual, so where are you getting "those" from"?

I didn't state anything, I asked a question. A reasonable question considerring what your original statement was implying.

Why would I rather believe that? Do you think I like the thought that anyone could be that insane and self-righteous?

I didn't stop there, I said, "What about the millions of children starving to death all over the world".

I rest my case about you not actually reading the posts you respond to (or the bible apparently).

If all you're going to do is talk, than I guess it doesn't matter where.

I understand this; christians such as yourself aren't practicing a religion you're practicing politics.
You're not trying to bring "God's kingdom on earth" you're just trying to bring back the white middle america of the 1950's (or do you consider that the same thing?), complete with it's insane, paranoid nationalism and it's hypocritcal, self-serving code of morality.

Statistics please? Got a reference for that?

Praise God! I guess that means the church gets to keep their$, rather than using it to fight poverty like the bible says to.

In that case I guess it's Ok for a bunch of spoiled, overfed surburban housecows to pull up to the abortion clinic in their $50,000 land cruisers and spend the day pointing their fingers at a girl who's lived in squallor all her life and yell "Murderer"!

I'm sure God's proud.

 

There was a time, long ago . . . Where there were Churches, Temples and Mosques on one street. Where Christians, Jews and Muslims lived together, thought together. It is not the religion that is incompatible, it is those who find their security in its order, take it to the extreme and let it consume them. There is no room for fundamendalists if we ever want peace on this earth.-shamen sun

there is a street like that near me a church, then mosque, then synagogue. its pretty cool actually

 

So if someone expresses their thoughts that donot agree with your slant, you automatically believe they are angry. Interesting.

Well let me say this, if you are not pro abortion, do you agree with me, that Americas Surpream Court should ban all abortions today, except in the cases that involve the life of the mother. And they should move ahead on this ruling Immediately. A simple YES or No will be fine.

 

I have supplied a copy of a list of U.S. historical abortion statistics for the years 1926 through 2004. I stated that there were 8,000 abortions in 1963. It appears there were only 5,000. Yet with the illegal abortions factored in, I'm sure the number would be closer to 8,000. I might also add, this statement from Dr. Bernard Nathanson. co-founder of the National Abortion Rights Action League, who admited to his group that he lied about the number of women who died from legal abortions when testifying before the Supreame Court in 1972. "We spoke of 5,000-10,000 deaths a year....I confess that I knew the figures were totally false...it was a useful figure, widely accepted, so why go out of our way to correct it with honest statistics?"

http://pages.prodigy.net/wrjohnston/policy/abortion/ab-unitedstates.html

 

The site you provided says there were 5000 legal abortions in the US in in 1963. The rest of what you said is suposition (based on what?).

Planned Parenthood says something different;

Expert Opinion:
100,000 illegal abortions is considered by experts to be an underestimation. Although there are no accurate data on the number of illegal abortions prior to its legal performance, Dr. Christopher Tietze, a demographer who was known worldwide for the scientific quality of his work, estimated that in 1963, the numbers ranged between 200,000 and 1,200,000. It is generally believed that the figure was closer to the higher level, and has risen little since abortion was legalized (currently about 1,500,000). In 1963, only those botched abortions having serious complications requiring hospitalization could be counted. Without a legal requirement for reporting, there are no accurate estimations as to what percentage of the degrading, dangerous, illegal abortions was successful without such complications.

Now while I realise that Planned Parenthood isn't exactly a disinterested party, neither are you. And at least Planned Parenthood is more accountable for what they say.

The quote by Nathanson addresses the number of abortion related deaths, not the number of abortions itself, which is what we're discussing.

Basically all you've proven (even if I accept your stats) is that the number of legal abortions has gone up since abortion was legalized.

Well duh.

 

You know Campbell, I don't even think you believe half of what you say in here.

Well there it is. Like I said, it's not a moral or religious issue for you it's a political issue.

Nope. Only an idiot thinks that outlawing abortion will solve the problem. In fact only an idiot thinks it will do anything but make the problem worse( Are you an idiot Campbell? A simple yes or no will be fine).

Now of course you'll say, since I'm not signing up for the idiot's solution to the problem, that I'm pro-abortion. Fine.

Like I said, I don't even think you believe half of what you say in here.