Why would a mass shooting not be false flag?

The pro Second Amendment people in this America refuse to acknowledge the gun issue. Every time there is a mass shooting a portion of them always claim the goverment did it so they can take guns. It's impossible that a gun owner would misuse it. It makes no sense because there is no change in public opinion. For their theory to be valid guns would actuly have to go away.

You need to be realistic. Guns kill that is why you want one. You might need to kill a guy. Why is it so hard to believe people will always use the freedoms of America which no other country grants to own guns and kill? These people love the "good guys with guns" because they insure easy access forever to guns. 99% of black market guns you see world wide come either from America or the former Soviot Union. What Colorado or The Netherlands is to weed America is to guns. The magical place where the rules are different and you can get that thing your goverment does not like.

Columbine happened in my town when I was a kid. That was about 20 years ago. Then it was a huge deal and the same discussions we have now happened and the same small percent of gun owners where clear they could not care less how many people die above all they need the "right" to not die themselves. These people are far from a majority which in theory is what would rule in a Democracy. No one but them wants the guns but they remain.

Literally decades have past with the same events repeating. The idea that it's some sort of cultural conditioning is laughable. If it was it fails. All a mass shooting does is remind a gun owner why the want a gun. It makes them violently opposed to ANY regulation. So I ask gun owners how can you believe the goverment is out to get you? The facts are that even though you are a minority the goverment supports you.

Why would the goverment commit to a plan that has the opposite affect to what is intended? In 50 years or 100 years it will be the same. Even long term this is not a logical conspiracy. Unless guns are flat out outlawed by force they will be here. You can not change the minds of the angry few.

Some mass shootings may be mind control of some sort I admit. When you see these men in the court room they are zombies. But it's so insulting to people who have actuly dealt with this to say the victims are all actors. Even if it's mind control you need real bodies. And a majority of them are in fact just a person who decided they wanted to kill people. Uncle Sam did not plant the idea.

 

I'm not so sure the government doesn't like it. Corporations and government are basically the same thing at this point and some of the biggest corporations are gun manufacturers. There's a reason few gun laws have been past despite public support for them.

 

Every American person who I have spoken to tells me that they feel safer here in London than at home. Guns in a civilized society make no sense to me at all. However removing guns from circulation in America would be a long and daunting task. Finding a suitable point to disarm the police would be a major hurdle.

 

it's all within the anxieties and sorrows of wars/mass destruction

 

One reason why America probably isn't going to have a war come to their land is the population of people with weapons. They have to deal with the military first and then when come on the land they've got 500 million civilians to defend themselves against. Pretty cool.

 

I totally agree. In fact, the only people who really profit off these mass shooting events are gun manufacturers. You have a shooting, the NRA says that government are going to use it as an excuse to come after your guns, people panic buy and donate vast sums to them and their profits skyrocket.

The narrative proposed, that the government are staging them as an excuse to take guns out of the hands of patriots, is absurd because it simply isn't happening. If anyone had a motive to stage this kind of thing, it's the NRA, their lobbyists and the huge industry behind them. The amount of donation money they receive and the spike in gun sales after every event are staggering.

Obviously, I don't think that this is the case, but it makes a whole tonne more sense than the usual narrative.

 

Even if the laws were changed few if any Americans would give up their guns. Nothing the NSA, CIA, or Trump does matters as long the Second Amendment is protected. Meaning there can be no restrictions on gun ownership. After a shooting pro gun people always have to imply they are open to changes in the law. A middle ground where they have guns but it's harder to get them. They are not interested in that.

I passed the NRA safety test the first time without studying or knowing anything about guns but what I saw in films. I only got one question wrong. I thought a gun could fire if you dropped it. Some can not apparently. So even if I assumed that was true I would be 100% extra safe with a gun with no training. And according to the NRA I've been to classes to learn all this. You don't even need to pass this test to buy a gun and it's a few hours one day. The whole process of gun ownership is designed to be easy by default. If you are not a complete idiot who has not been to prison you can have a gun. And if you have been to prison you can easily buy a gun illegally.

The Mexicans cartels go to pro NRA Texas where half the Americans speak Spanish and offer 10 times what a gun is really worth outside gun shows. This is where lots of private sales happen. Guns are not easy to get in Mexico and $30,000 is nothing to people like that but a lot to many Americans. If you buy from a shop there are laws but the American gun culture has a lot of people who don't want the goverment to know what guns they have. Also it's none of their business anyway why do they need to know?Everyone has a price and it's a culture of not caring what the next guy does with his gun. It's his "right" and he seemed OK to me. He probably will be a "good guy with a gun". The kind of gun owner they always say is needed when a shooting occurs.

Canada and Mexico are unlikely to invade us. We also have the benefit of being isolated by two oceans. People glamorize the militias of America but they are not organized. They will fight each other more then any foreign enemy. Their fundamental philosophy is distrust for groups that grow too large. If it came to them trying to unite they will assume groups outside the ones they knew prior to war do not have the same vision of America they do. The American government has already infiltrated most of the major ones. They are not outsiders prepared to overthrow an evil goverment. They are people having their fear and passion used as a distraction. They also openly say they will shoot Americans who did not agree with their politcal views even if they are not the reason for a war. So I would say the average gun owning militia person is not to be trusted by many Americans in a war. Many would not do that I am sure but the politcal views create a lot of hate here. Their support is more for the goverment believing they will help than believing the president will attack them.

You are lucky to live in a place where gun violence is less of an issue. Germany is not really at risk of being invaded either. And you have a large enough military with many of the same special forces and military equipment America has. Just smaller numbers. But special forces and strategic equipment can do a lot short term until allies come.

I have a cousin who was there when Columbine happened. And my sister's boyfriend was planning to go the showing of the Batman movie that was a mass shooting. He decided not to go that night. My parents live down the road from another high school besides Columbine where a teenager brought a gun to school and shoot a few people. The schools are about 15 miles apart. Each of these events got national coverage in America and each of them killed people. The same people had the same debate. Americans will always have guns. So the culture you like will never change.

 

Perhaps my biggest fear living in America would be the use of guns in a domestic dispute situation when someone was enraged or simply drunk. It is only since our daughter became a London police officer that I realize the number of violent domestic disputes that occur daily. Even when a knife is pulled, few incidents involve an actual stabbing and most of those that do result in fairly minor injury. With a gun, one pull of the trigger, even from a distance can so easily result in a fatality. I have no idea of your figures, but I imagine that you have a lot more domestic fatal and serious injuries than we do in the UK. I would not keep a gun in the house, even if I was paid to have it there.

 

It's not that I like the gun culture. I don't mind guns, but my guns are locked away in a safe where they belong when not in use. Far too often I read things like, I'm waiting for the postman to deliver something and I have my gun ready just in case.

There's something very wrong right there, if you THINK you need a gun to stay safe from a postman lol. And that's not me blaming gun laws or lack of gun laws, that's straight up, something wrong with that person. But I don't live in America so I dunno, maybe post officers are dangerous.

But still kinda fucked up people need a gun at all times to make themselves feel safe.

 

No issues with the post man usualy. Americans who carry a gun in public usualy are uncomfortable in public places like restaurants. Their own home where the postman comes probably had other guns not good for carrying around. So they feel safe there.

Funny thing to me is the same kind of people who think a business has the right to say we don't make cakes for gay couples get upset when the business tells them they can not have a gun there. And many do because most Americans do not like guns and those that do are usualy not the type to carry a large riffle in public. But for those that are it's very important to be seen with the gun. In their mind that's good because people are afraid to even try to shoot them.

 

I hate it when people tell me I live in a civilized society and that means that somehow I am not supposed to or dont need to do certain things. Dont lump me in with your civilized society.

 

The concept of overthrowing the goverment because you have a riffle is limited to America. Instead of seeing what the rest of the world sees the American gun owner thinks they are stupid. There were 345 mass shootings in America in 2017. "Mass" being 4 or more killed at one time. Almost one every day. How many times did a "good guy" stop anything? Because plenty of studies have shown they don't and that in that situation someone like that shoots anyone to protect themselves only which means more innocent people killed.

You are not going to have a second Civil War with your Ar-15 just trust the police and military.

 

I really don't see how your reply has anything to do with my post lol.

 

I put food on the table with my Tikka T3x 30-06. I also have an old Winchester 30-30. These are both for killing deer, but they are not interchangable. The 30-06 is for open country. The 30-30 is for thick brush and forest. See the problem here? I can justify owning two guns just for hunting deer alone. Really, you can justify owning more than that just for deer. I also have a Marlin .22 semi auto for small game like rabbits. I would like to purchase a shotgun and a pistol for self defense. I live in the hood. I fear for my safety. About two months ago I was outside in my yard when a shooting happened one block from me. One shot to the chest. I know the guy went to the hospital with life threatening injuries, but I don't know anything else. One of my concerns is that someone commits a crime somewhere else, and then comes onto my property to flee or hide. So it's not exactly direct violence I am concerned about, but being surrounded by it and something weird happening. As for self defense, I only want two guns for that, but you can justify a much larger quantity because there is home defense, automobile defense, concealed carry, and more. And in each of these seperate subcategorues you can also justify owning more than one gun for each in some. I once had a vegan tell me I didn't need to hunt because humans aren't hunter gatherers anymore and that now we live in a civilized society. Don't lump me in with your civilized society. I shit in a bucket and compost it and grow plants with it. I make about $5,000 dollars a year. Fuck you if you'll tell me that I have to be "modern." I am not impressed with the way things are, we ought to be more humble.

 

Alright even though your reply to my post has nothing to do with my post, lets parse it out piece by piece.

"The American gun owner thinks (the rest of the world) is stupid."
Oh, ok. So you know what every person who lives in the USA and owns a gun is thinking right now and at all times. Ok. Wow. Have you ever heard of "what is popular is not always what's right?" Maybe "the rest of the world" doesn't know what living in America is like because they have never been here.

Boiling everything down to statistics is misleading. Correlation is not causation. I don't know what the answer is, but I think it's a little more complicated than we realize. Most scientists conducting these studies have an anti-gun bias. They analyze stats and present their case.

For the record, I am not apt to talk about "the good guy" with the gun averting catastrophe. Not everyone who is for gun ownership thinks that. So you can't hang your argument on that one thing.

Yeah I don't think that we are going to have a second civil war either. Again, what you say shows that you have lumped gun owners into a "gun people" category and that all these gun people think the same way. Doesn't really say much about you.

You are making a caricature of what a gun owner is. Its like how you quote my post and bring up a slew of things in response to that which I never said. Out of a vacuum you bring up these points because in your mind I must be one of those people so to speak. I think that most people in our society now tend to errantly conflate certain traits with being intelligent. Some of those traits would be pointing at data and arguing for "progressive" ideals. These are not necessarily signs of intelligence in themselves. Check yourself before you wreck yourself.

 

On another topic: the local weekly newsletter that is put out in my city had a gun discussion. They went around town asking people what they thought.

Now this has to do with what I am talking about how "science" and statistics present a very limited and incomplete snapshot of how things really are, and how quite frequently there is an anti-gun bias among whoever is making this science.

The paper asked this guy out on the street "Do you own a gun?" He said "No, because I have kids, and studies have shown that having a gun in the house is more likely to lead to your child being shot."

Now to me, what that guy said is just as good as calling your own self stupid.

 

No you are everything I said other wise you not have felt the need to reply. The gun is life the gun is worth defending. A sad person clutching a killing device but that is America.

 

Thanks for proving my point with these ad hominem arguments. Again you do the same thing over that I pointed out earlier. You caricature gun owners and you claim to be able to know who I am or what all I think based just on the fact I own a gun. Instead of addressing what you percieve to be wrong with the me, address the argument. Your logic that by me replying to your post I am admitting guilt is a fallacy. You can't put everyone into your neat little categories. That's a big problem we have today. The assumption that if I do not share a stance with you on a certain subject, then that means I am also X,Y and Z. Be a little more open minded and accepting of people who are different from you.

In a post where I did not mention anything about guns, you make the leap to erroneously pin me down as the owner of an assault rifle that wants to fight a civil war. And then you double down on it after I point out how you might be wrong. Boy that is rich. I do not own an assault rifle. I am looking into my crystal ball and it's telling me that there is just no intelligent conversation to be had with you. Prove me wrong, but I'm not going to get my hopes up.

When I read your reply to my first post, the thought I had was "How does any of that have to do with what I said?" It was like someone asking "where do coconuts grow?" and someone tells them what time of year to plant tomatoes. I think you are really bogged down in your ideology when you can't even have a conversation with someone.

To be fair, I will leave you an out. Were you just trying to spout your infinite wisdom regardless it had nothing to do with the post? You can say yes.

 

Agreed. We are at a point of no return in the US on this issue. With all the crazy things going on here, it has only made me actually purchase a gun and apply for a concealed carry permit, only because I fear for the safety of my wife and daughter. If it was just me living by myself, I could care less about owning one. The rise of home invasions, armed burglaries, etc. have inspired me to do so. And I've been shot at before several times, with no means of being able to return the favor. Never again. Better to have and not need, than to need and not have.

 

It is a sad situation. My biggest fears if I was living in the US would be people going for their gun during an irrational moment of rage or when they were high on alcohol or drugs.

The point that so many Americans miss about the UK, is that you can go to prison for up to 14 years for carrying a firearm, even if you have never used it. Since criminals are regularly getting pulled over by the police, it would be complete madness for them to carry a gun.

With the current situation in the US, I cannot even imagine how the situation could be transitioned. Perhaps I should fly over in a few years and stand for President. I will be about the right age by then and I am sure that a few HF members would vote for me. LOL