Why is Mary needed for the birth of Jesus

If god can snap it's fingers and make Adam and Eve then why is a human required to create Jesus? Is it not more convincing that he is divine if he simply comes into existence as say a full grown man?

The story of virgin birth predates Christianity by thousands of years going back to Egyptian gods. So don't you think that is compelling evidence that perhaps Jesus was just a con man of his day who knew there was power in making people believe he had answers to things he could not possibly know? Pagan roman accounts of him describe him as a pig farmer who learned magic and then decided to represent himself as a god. Jews mostly in Israel since that is really the only safe place for such an opinion since historically Christians take the whole "not accept Christ" thing serious enough to kill say the same thing, he was a witch who manipulated people. There are also accounts of him having siblings which of course he does not like to discuss because that takes away from his divinity.

So how to explain the need for a virgin birth?

 

Found this on a website -

"Why, indeed? Why did Jesus come as a child?

Jesus is the One like no other, for he was fully human and fully divine - simultaneously. Nothing about his humanity could detract from his godliness; nothing about his godliness could detract from his humanity. Only because this is true can he reconcile the Father in heaven with his children on earth. He is the Man of both worlds; he is the bridge by which God comes to earth and people come to heaven.

In that regard, we have seen that the Virgin Birth is the sign of his divinity. He comes to the earth from outside, pure and clean, and he is in no way a product of this world. Now we see that, in the same way, the infancy of the Child is the sign of his humanity. He is one of us in every way. He arrives from heaven with perfection and godliness of which no man or woman is capable - yet he takes the full human journey, which even God in heaven had not taken. How could we follow his footsteps as a man if we hadn't seen him crawl as a child? How could we believe he had undergone all the temptation we have faced if he had bypassed the most difficult years in which we struggle to earn our adulthood?

To make the full sacrifice on our behalf, Jesus had to make the full commitment. It would have meant very little to us if he had sprung from heaven fully formed, bathed in heavenly glory, saying, "Here are my hands and my feet - place me upon the cross, for I am willing to die.""

 

Every other god came to earth fully developed and did not loose their luster to any mortal being. I'd say if he came down fully developed it would have been a huge deal.

 

Ridiculous but your entitled to your opinion. He was a liar if he even existed. What women is a married virgin especially in those times.

 

Heard this story on the radio a few weeks ago. Kind of makes some sense, if you think about it..

The Man and the Birds
by Paul Harvey

The man to whom I’m going to introduce you was not a scrooge, he was a kind decent, mostly good man. Generous to his family, upright in his dealings with other men. But he just didn’t believe all that incarnation stuff which the churches proclaim at Christmas Time. It just didn’t make sense and he was too honest to pretend otherwise. He just couldn’t swallow the Jesus Story, about God coming to Earth as a man.

“I’m truly sorry to distress you,” he told his wife, “but I’m not going with you to church this Christmas Eve.” He said he’d feel like a hypocrite. That he’d much rather just stay at home, but that he would wait up for them. And so he stayed and they went to the midnight service.

Shortly after the family drove away in the car, snow began to fall. He went to the window to watch the flurries getting heavier and heavier and then went back to his fireside chair and began to read his newspaper. Minutes later he was startled by a thudding sound…Then another, and then another. Sort of a thump or a thud…At first he thought someone must be throwing snowballs against his living room window. But when he went to the front door to investigate he found a flock of birds huddled miserably in the snow. They’d been caught in the storm and, in a desperate search for shelter, had tried to fly through his large landscape window.

Well, he couldn’t let the poor creatures lie there and freeze, so he remembered the barn where his children stabled their pony. That would provide a warm shelter, if he could direct the birds to it.

Quickly he put on a coat, galoshes, tramped through the deepening snow to the barn. He opened the doors wide and turned on a light, but the birds did not come in. He figured food would entice them in. So he hurried back to the house, fetched bread crumbs, sprinkled them on the snow, making a trail to the yellow-lighted wide open doorway of the stable. But to his dismay, the birds ignored the bread crumbs, and continued to flap around helplessly in the snow. He tried catching them…He tried shooing them into the barn by walking around them waving his arms…Instead, they scattered in every direction, except into the warm, lighted barn.

And then, he realized that they were afraid of him. To them, he reasoned, I am a strange and terrifying creature. If only I could think of some way to let them know that they can trust me…That I am not trying to hurt them, but to help them. But how? Because any move he made tended to frighten them, confuse them. They just would not follow. They would not be led or shooed because they feared him.

“If only I could be a bird,” he thought to himself, “and mingle with them and speak their language. Then I could tell them not to be afraid. Then I could show them the way to safe, warm…to the safe warm barn. But I would have to be one of them so they could see, and hear and understand.”

At that moment the church bells began to ring. The sound reached his ears above the sounds of the wind. And he stood there listening to the bells – Adeste Fidelis – listening to the bells pealing the glad tidings of Christmas.

And he sank to his knees in the snow.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

I really have no idea what that story is supposed to accomplish.

My belief is very simple I am as much "god" as Jesus. The idea that he was more then me or somehow has some special skill is simply manipulation on his part. The Catholic church which all Christianity has roots in was founded centuries later and has added many things such as the entire concept of hell and the resurrection story in the middle ages.

Your being manipulated and not understanding your true potential to think that your a "sinner" by birth who requires the aid of something else. You were lied to by an alien that said it was god.

 

Not my opinion but after checking online it appeared to answer your question from a Christian perspective. Is that not what you wanted?
These threads attacking Christianity get old real fast, even for me who is about as far as you can get from a Christian.

 

I don't think the claim of virgin birth is compelling evidence to suspect Jesus of being a con man. There's nothing in scripture that shows He ever made the claim that his mother was a virgin. Nothing in the earliest Christian writings, the letters of Paul, nor the earliest gospel, Mark, makes that claim. It first appears in the gospels of Matthew and Luke. In Matthew, it seems to result from confusion about the Greek translation of the Hebrew word "alma' (maiden) in an Old Testament prophecy that really has nothing to do with the coming of the Messiah. Virgin births were claimed for others in antiquity, so why not Jesus. But the Egyptians? Which Egyptian god(s) are you thinking of? Do you know of any who were born of virgins?

Horus is the closest I can think of, but that's quite a stretch. Before he was born, his uncle Set chopped his father Osiris into fourteen pieces and scattered them. His mother, Isis, managed to find them and resuscitate his dad, but one critical piece was missing--his penis. So Isis improvised a prosthetic penis and used that to conceive Horus--Osiris being animated but dead at the time. I grant you this was a miraculous birth, but does using a dildo for penetration really count as "virginity"?

As to Jesus being a con man, why would you put credibility in "pagan Roman accounts"? And which "accounts' are you talking about? The only one I know of is Celsus, who is about as biased as you are on the subject. What did he know? What were the sources of his information? Rumor? A Jewish pig farmer? Interesting. Do you really think somebody could make a reputation in Galilee as a prophet and holy man raising un-kosher animals. The New Testament says He was a tecton--i.e., either a carpenter or some other day laborer. To an elitist snob like Celsus, that would be reason enough to dismiss Him, but it enabled Him to identify with the poorest of poor and society's rejects. Yes, Celsus, like the Pharisees of Jesus' time, accused Him of using magic. Maybe He did, maybe He didn't. His healings and exorcisms might have been the result of hysteric or psychosomatic phenomena similar to those we encounter today among faith healers. But there's no reason to think He didn't himself believe his powers were genuine and from God.

I don't think there's any indication that Jesus didn't like to discuss his siblings. The Bible mentions their names. Whether they were biological siblings or step siblings is debated.

As to why God couldn't just "snap His fingers", one of the central tenets of Christian doctrine--at least the version that won out at Nicea--is that Jesus was a real man, as well as divine. In order to be fully human, he had to be born of a human mother. And in order to be divine, he had to be conceived by divinity. Some early Christian sects believed that Jesus was adopted by God at His resurrection or the time of His baptism. These sects didn't believe in the virgin birth, because that tradition hadn't caught on yet.
So how to explain the need for a virgin birth?[/QUOTE]

 

But maybe God didn't think so.

 

the no belly button thing would of scared the shit out of people..

 

Jesus was a new hybrid species of human and the aliens impregnated Mary with artifical insemination.
Pretty cut and dry.

 

That sounds very Christian. To question or bring up any point must mean they are the victim. I am simply asking for a rational explanation. Something that can not found in a book written by men before what we could call modern logic was formed. Your talking about people who didn't understand where the sun went at night. How can this book have anything but superstition in it?

That's more in line with my opinion. Perhaps his story was hijacked and the mystical stuff mixed in. The religion of Egypt is more in line with what the Illuminati worship. Their kings are related to our modern world leaders. This could be called "satanism". So what better way to corrupt the message I mentioned before then to mix it in with their "gods". To make Jesus into same figure. He is no longer Buddha only a man who found the way. No he is this mystical being whom you must rely on the church to be the middle man for his approval. The power is not within you and to suggest that would be blasphemy. Really a clever lie when you think of it.

If you read the bible he really is a bit of an asshole. Sort of like an abusive boyfriend. For all his supposed love there is also allot of threats. Basically as long as you do what I say I won't hurt you I do this for your own good. What would we say to a women who had a man like that? And god for that matter is the same sort of thing if you believe in hell.

What is it that Christians say "the greatest trick the devil plays is convincing people he does not exist". The catholic church is the most evil satanic origination in existence. And they do it by pretending be the opposite.

Because they predate Christianity a religion which is known to have picked and chose what fits their image of Jesus. For example the Dead Sea Scrolls contain a story of Jesus murdering a child (by accident but still). But where is that? No it doesn't fit their story so they decide it did not happen.

 

Hmmm. You say you believe pagan accounts of Jesus because they predate Chrisitanity? What do you mean predate Christianity? Christianity seems have been well along by the time Paul wrote his letters, and there are no known pagan accounts as early as that. Celsus was the first, writing in 178 C.E. Which one(s) were you thinking about? As for the Dead Sea Scrolls, I don't think there's anything in them clearly describing Jesus at any stage of his life. I think you're confusing them with the Nag Hammadi library of Gnostic writings. The story you're describing sounds like the Infancy Gospel of Thomas, an Apocryphal Christian work. Those Gnostics were Christians, not pagans, although not of the Pauline kind that became dominant, and they wrote in the second century at the earliest. Your facts are so fractured that you might rethink making grand pronouncements about historical events until you've done more research.

 

I think he meant that stories about Jesus have been told way before the bible. The flood stroy had been around wayy before Jesus. The Sumerians, the "oldest" most wise culture ever, gave all credit to an Alien race, after that the same stories kept being told but with different names for different cultures.

 

How were those stories about Jesus, the Galilean of the first century C.E.? Was Unfocusedanakin trying to say that things attributed to Jesus were borrowed from other figures of that period? If so, be specific and we'll see if there is substance to that claim. Who, what and when? I happen to agree that there may have been some borrowing, but there's also a lot of pseudo-history in print and on the internet. Are you talking about the Anunaki mentioned in the Enuma Elish? I think it would really be a stretch to say they had anything to do with Jesus.

 

Horus the Egyptian god is very similar to Jesus. Both have virgin births, "temptations" and a resurrection. He is but one example. Why is so important for you to prove this man was magic. Does it threaten your concept of reality too much. Do you believe "god" will punish you? Ask yourself what sort of god does that. A rose by any other name is a rose. So assume your a good person you do everything "christian" yet do not call yourself that. A god that punishes you for that is not one to praise. It is an insecure being it is not the true god. By Christian logic jews, Muslims, and the rest of the world will go to hell simple for calling the rose the wrong name. It is silly. I do not dispute the morals of Christianity are a nice way to live but you are too caught up in one man. A man who by definition must be worshiped in order to be a member of the religion.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tx9WMbCljdo"]Religulous - The similarities between Horus and Jesus - YouTube

 

The authors of christianity, as dim-witted and uncreative as they were, stole the idea from other cultures. Jesus' was not the only virgin birth. There were multiple.

 

It all depends on what you mean by a virgin. Horus' mean uncle Seth chopped his dad, Osiris, into fourteen pieces. Isis recovered most of them and revived Osiris, but the penis went missing. Isis fashioned a prosthetic one, and used it to conceive Horus. Is that virgin birth. I say not. It's miraculous, I grant you, but it involved penetration, so to me, that's a disqualifier!

Actually, virgin birth appears in only two of the gospel stories, Matthew and Luke. Paul, the earliest Christian writer, says nothing about it, and the first gospel, that of Mark, is also silent, as is the last gospel, that of John, who is more concerned with showing that Jesus existed before time. Matthew, thought to be the second gospel writer, relies on a prophecy in the Old Testament, which he apparently read in the Greek translation of the Hebrew: "A virgin shall conceive and bear a son.." Actually, the original Hebrew says "maiden", but the word in the Greek translation can mean "virgin". Writing for a Jewish audience, Matthew is concerned with proving that Jesus is the fulfillment of OT prophecy. In Luke, who wrote for a Gentile audience, an angel tells Mary that The Holy Spirit will "come upon" her and the Power of the Most High will "overshadow' her, and the one who is born will be called "holy, the Son of God". As you say, this may have impressed Gentile audiences who were familiar with similar tales about great personages like Caesar Augustus and Plato. "Stole" is so judgmental. Let's say it was part of their culture. I don't believe in the virgin birth, because the scriptural evidence for it seems to be weak, and it's the kind of extraordinary happening which would require extraordinarily strong evidence.

 

I was referring to different cultures, not merely to Christianity. The virgin birth was not unique to Christianity, for multiple cultures around the same time also had similar virgin births that resulted in gods.

 

Yes, in the previous post, I mentioned two possible candidates in the Greco-Roman world: Caesar Augustus and Plato--although in the latter case, Plutarch's details about the conception are a bit vague, and given the alleged father's (Apollo's) reputation as a womanizer, I'd be suspicious. I also explained in an earlier post why I don't think Horus qualifies. As for others, you might be more specific. Virgin birth, as Christians understand it, is birth by a woman who hasn't had sex before and conceives without sexual intercourse. Most Greco-Roman accounts of miraculous births of godmen involve mortal women being raped by gods or gods having sex with women under false pretenses (e.g., Zeus pretending to be the woman's husband). The Buddha is said to have been conceived when a white elephant penetrated his mother's rib cage (ouch!). Does that count? Mithras was said to have sprung from a rock, and after Christianity became popular, his worshipers made clear it was a "virgin" rock, if you can get your head around that concept ("stealing" goes both ways). So name your virgins, and we'll see if the claims to virginity stand up. But I agree. Christianity wasn't the first religion to entertain such a notion.

On the basis of my limited knowledge, I'd accept the Egyptian account of Amenhothep III, as related in sculptures on the wall of the temple of Luxor at Karnack. The god Thoth tells the queen that she will bear a child, and the gods Kenph and Athor put into her mouth the character for life. If Amenhotep were conceived as a result, that would certainly have been a miracle. Since we don't know his mother's previous sexual history, we might still have reservations about her virginity, but certainly that particular conception would be asexual. Another problem: this happened so long before Jesus proving a connection to Christianity is difficult. Atheist sites often say that the Egyptian version is "almost identical" to the Annunciation found in the NT, but it takes lots of imagination to reach that conclusion.

Pending further study, I'd also tentatively accept the Aztec-Toltec myth of the conception of Quetzalcoatl by the virgin Chimalman after the god Onteol appeared to her in a dream, or Mixcoatl shot an arrow between her legs, or she drank jade, depending on which version of the legend you believe. One quibble: unlike the virgin Mary, she was never regarded as having been human, and was thought of as a spirit. It would be hard to imagine how that story could have influenced the early Christians--unless the Mormons were right about Jesus visiting America. The birth has other miraculous aspects resembling the Persian deity Mithras worshiped in ancient Rome. Like Mithras, Quetzalcoatl-Topiltzin burst from his Mother's womb fully armed. Jeez, do you suppose the Romans stole that from the Toltecs and Aztecs? Nobody thinks they were in contact with each other, the New World not having been discovered yet.

I should be clear that the basis for connecting any of these accounts to Christian beliefs is conjectural. To me, it's interesting that, with all the emphasis on "verifiable evidence" on the part of some atheists, these alleged "influences" are so readily accepted without any direct evidence connecting them to the authors the New Testament.