Why Is Everyone So Anti-Datura?

SuperPsyche, it was simply for the experience. But again I was looking for the path to the brink of delirium, not for swimming in the sea of madness and I found it quite safely.

Roo, there never was a "morning-after" scenario, the physical effects from smoking it were negligible, no hangover or clouded mental states to recover from. Perhaps the reson for which being I was smoking it and not eating it or making a tea from it? Perhaps smoking eliminates a majority of the toxins or something, dont know. It is a much more powerful thing when consumed, I ate a leaf once and the effect was equal, almost greater than what I had encountered while smoking about 2 teaspoons of dried plant matter. Could very well have ended up being two to tenfold moreso too given the randomness of potency, still it was enjoyable (at least in my headspace).

I will say it should be quite easy to experience what it has to show you with a micro-dose mixed with a bit of THC. I had smoked a bit once a few days after having smoked Datura (Wrightii variety) and was for a while wandering in a sort of "land of the dead" where at least in my minds eye, there were spirits and dead things all around, but strangely they weren't threatening in any way, just slightly unnerving, not malicious, just there,,, may have just been my psyche manifesting my philosophy on the afterlife or something I suppose. It felt sort of a proper place for "them" out there in the Desert where I was.

But seriously, all talk of delirium aside,,, if you are experimenting with this stuff, keep a dream journal.

 

Has anyone here used both Diphenhydramine and Datura? I'm interested in hearing any differences between the 2

 

Well fritz, I may well micro-dose like that at some point, I've enjoyed reading your descriptions of it. Do you have a thread with full reports?

Nonetheless, I wouldn't devote large amounts of time to it, simply because it doesn't look worth it. Further pursuing that wikipedia page told me what I assumed, that synaptic plasticity and the like, including memory and just about everything, are decreased by anticholergenics. I assume you'd strait up score retarded on an IQ test.... I see it being interesting, but I don't see it as worth risking my life to dose high, or wasting months of my life to work up a tolerance. If I'm going to spend that much time intoxicated, I can think of a host of things I'd rather be on, that I'd gain a lot more from, especially weed and LSD.

I think it can be taken responsibly, and I think fritz is a rare example of that. And I think it can and almost always is taken irresponsibly, and OP is a great example of that. And even while being this example, he can't see what people don't like about datura, and keeps arguing....

 

NOT.. I have a scopolamine cream, goes behind the ears. It will fuck you up like PCP, I shit you not. You probably safer smoking a few pinners and getting dizzy.

 

I average in the 120's range with online tests,,, S'ok, never wanted to join Mensa. Still wouldn't mind being retested by a qualified shrink.

But again with regard to physiological changes associated with usage, perhaps smoking it altered the compound in some such a way as to negate or at least greatly reduce some of the undesired side effects?? Or maybe I just didn't do enough to cause the damage they spoke of,,, you know I have it on good authority,,, smoking weed can make you think you've grown wings and cause you to jump out a window right?? Not to mention the whole "Look a white woman right in the eye" issue.
And no, not saying your point is moot, but perhaps a bit blown out of proportion for "the sake of public safety" by those who wrote it or maybe it is simply a scare tactic, like how they used to swear up and down that LSD caused damage to chromazonal tissue, never mentioning this was acheived by literally pouring a beaker of LSD onto a tissue sample in a petri dish,,, (Milk would damage it equally) :cheers2:

And no, I never did really chronicle the experience much, I'm one who thinks the experience with entheogens is a personal one and doing so may lead an individual to expect something from something when it has something entirely different in store for the individual. IE, I'd guess not everyone will likely need a dream journal.

And by no means take any of this to mean I feel that I think Datura is a safe, harmless, fun for the whole family substance,,, it's like Sesame oil, some folks really really like it on their Ramen noodles, but most folks just go "Bleck!" Of course, Sesame oil cant kill you,,, unless a 55 gallon drum drops on you from above.

Yes, I'm now officially tired and rambling... Good night all.

 

Haha haha, alright assumptions. First of all, I'm a schizophrenic, and as a result, I'm often subjected to regular health inspections. I've got no problems, because I take care of my body and mind as a whole, including diet, exercise, recreation, simplicity, and positivity. Second, I'd be willing to test my intelligence against your's any day. For your information, I've attended the best private and catholic schools in my state, as well as a very good public high school, where I honestly didn't learn anything. Nonetheless, I find the accumulation of knowledge to be pretty fun, so I've kept up independent study, following topics from mathematics to chemistry and physics to philosophy and theology. I was going to join the Air Force in fact, before I changed my mind to travel by land and write (never told them about the "illness", but now that I read that, they would have found out eventually with medical records).
The last time I took a legitimate IQ test was in fourth grade I believe, and while I can't recall my exact score (it was of little importance to me at the time), I do remember the classification Exceptionally Gifted, which I think is above 160. I'm pretty sure that adult tests are scored differently, but I still know I did well.
Regardless, I also believe that IQ tests test empirical knowledge, and even (sometimes) realistic thinking like logic and spatial reasoning, however, these are only measurements of the capacities of the tool you use. It is the same idea that great SAT scores will get you into an Ivy league school easily. This is wrong. There are many other factors that come into play, including your grades (a reflection of your determination often), your attendance (responsibility), extracurricular activities (values, merits), etc. Granted (obviously), high IQs and SAT scores correlate with a higher degree of Whole Intelligence. This is intrinsic. But this does not mean that academic intelligence autonomously qualifies a highly intelligent whole self. Factors like emotional intelligence, interpersonal and intrapersonal intelligence, creative intelligence, and many more (including, for your insistence on didactic qualifications, Life Experience and Contribution ((Ethos Rhetoric, and foundation of Authority))), come into play, which, when taken as a whole (looking at an individual's self), affords a look at the character and intelligence (and other traits) of any self.
Finally, I'd like to say that irrelevant Ad Hominem retaliations, regardless of popular sway, have no bearing on fact, and are by their very definition fallacious. (But just because I just noticed your comment about my misplacement of necessitates in the Datura Paste Tek, you yourself have made MANY grammatical and linguistic errors. Human condition baby, we err, live with it.)

SuperPsychMe, DPH and DXM are lame compared to natural scopolamine; at least, in terms of ritualistic affect, IMO. You get a more pronounced visual weirdness, with the little floating, wispy glass spiders, or at higher doses you can get to seeing some of the true hallucinations, but I always remember that I am on a drug, and the hallucinations have never appeared completely realistic to me. More like, I see strange headwear, made of the same wispy glass the spiders are made of, on all my friends. On Datura, I've straight up seen giant shadowy birds eating some sort of rotten carcass in the woods, like alien creatures though.

The scopolamine cream from Datura is traditionally used by witches, and rubbed along the calves and feet, inducing a feeling of flying during your experience. Particularly receptive areas like your temples, the backs of your ears, or even your armpits, are advised against (unless you're looking for something like PCP).
Additionally, with a comparison like PCP, I would assume that you experienced less severe body-load (visual problems, nausea, migraine, etc.) than with Datura?

ROORshack, of your own admittance you have very limited experience with entheogens. This is not bad, but you are simply at a different point than others are. I've explored LSD to innumerable depths, and learned so much. I smoke weed on the regular, and personally, I find it to be one of the LEAST useful drugs ever, to the point of being counter-productive at times. I've done much more research as well, but it's beside the point. The point is that different people need different experiences at different times.
As fun as LSD is, I'd rather explore something else, because I've already explored LSD so much. (Of course I still can always go deeper, but it becomes a bit stagnant, or lacking in novelty at times.)

I don't know why everyone here keeps arguing the safety of Datura. This isn't the topic. Everybody here already knows it's dangerous, and I've already stated so myself, as has fritz. This isn't about safe usage, this is about controlled and proper use, and the fact that it is indeed possible.
Furthermore, I'm not astounded as to why people don't enjoy this substance. It is easily understandable. My title was merely asking about the harsh sentiment, with disregard to even a sliver of positive knowledge, or damage controlling information (for those who don't care about words of warning). THIS to me is astounding.

 

Interesting, I think I may give it a go sometime. Thanks for the comparison. I've gotten the frank hallucinations once with diphenhydramine and it was not fun. With lower doses I can tell the difference but at that dose no way. I always thought Datura would be better for the effects. Thanks for the info, it helps a lot!

 

hey man i dont want to be rude or anything but why do you take so powerful mind altering substances if you are a schizophrenic?
you are a clever dude. Why do you keep pushing it? maybe one day you will never come back.

i think that people dont like datura becouse its not psychedelic. i mean it can be used for spiritual reasons but i think its not what people think it is and when try it they get frightened. its just pure madness. it wont open the doors. it just makes you think that the doors are open. but the door doesnt even exist. and you just walk into the wall. and you keep banging your head.

i think its not a drug for this society. its an ancient god from an ancient time. people were different back then. madness was a gift. now its a curse.
but hey i dont really know what im talking about. i never took datura. but i wil try it when i get 70 years old. if i can live that long.

 

because clever people are crazy as fuck..

 

No problem Psyche.

gendorf, while hallucinogenic (and otherwise) drug use most likely played a role in the early onset of my predisposed condition (which is incapable of being caused by drugs), these experiences have given me an excellent ability to handle myself and my condition. (Honestly, I regard the unconventional and "faulty" thought patterns of schizophrenia to be just another model for perceiving Existence, which occurs by nature, and that this is not necessarily a disease. It's often unhealthy, but so are many other thought systems which are not considered diseased.)
Anyway, Psychedelics not only took the brunt trauma of the onset and development of my schizophrenia, but they've allowed me to much more easily navigate and react calmly and rationally to hallucinations. If you'd read the thread, you'd know that I am in support of Datura and other Deliriants due to their ability to help one recognize delusion, as well as take the reaction and navigation of hallucination to another level, one that includes extreme emotions, confusion, pain, and terror; which is sometimes what schizophrenia can be like. Dissociatives are useful in regards to schizophrenia much as they are to others, as a tool for experiencing Ego-Loss, and thereby deterring many negative symptoms like asocial behavior and mood panning or intensifying.

It is important though to recognize that schizophrenia can indeed be brought on early and with much more intensity through the use of hallucinogenic drugs. This is not to be taken lightly.


Now, I do agree with you, gendorf, about people not expecting what they get with Delirium. No fractals, no shiny colors, no lovely awesomeness at all really. You get bugs. And rot. And real fear. And lots of physical pain. So.. definitely not psychedelic haha.

 

Mr. unspellable username:

How much or often you take a drug doesn't mean a whole lot, I'm not impressed with your innumerable depths or whatever. You obviously don't know how to use weed, if it's not useful to you and datura is.

Being schizophrenic is highly relevant, and should have been mentioned sooner. It gives some meaning to your statement about helping you discern reality. But that doesn't change the fact that you obviously suck at using drugs, and using drugs safely, by your own admission. (risking you life once or twice, with your admitted dosing experiments, counts as beyond sucking at drugs)

And as I said, it's the mystique of datura that makes it valuable to you. You speak of "witches" all the time, and ritualism.... Yeah, exactly, you seem to have written off serious (and again, much safer, physically) drugs (Was it someone on this forum who described seeing a spider with an evil clowns face driving a taxicab, and jumping out of the way? ) because you didn't have the will to push the dosages with them, while being happy to delve into seriously damaging dangerous ones.

Fritz, I wasn't reading that anyone said those things about datura, I was reading about acetylcholine, and the things it does, and the things it's low levels do. Datura's method of action is to block acetylcholine, so it's highly relevant.

 

Haha, well I'm very tired of arguing this with you, so I won't continue in a futile effort any longer after this.

First of all, experience has VERY MUCH to do with how you utilize and integrate a drug, especially powerful substances like RCs and Entheogens.
Secondly, marijuana brings me down. It lowers my levels of creativity, and blunts reality. Some good Sativa bud can actually enhance my perception, but generally speaking, weed is just something normal. (Actually, I may also start a thread about the effects of long-term marijuana use and perception.)
Thirdly, my schizophrenia's relevance comes from your accusations of bad health; then becomes another point entirely of itself by highlighting the symptoms' positive reactions to the substances we are speaking of.
It is also my opinion that YOU suck at using drugs, and are ignorant of safe use, being paranoid and afraid. Perhaps you might benefit from confronting a basic psychological rift in your self? (I've heard Datura is good for this. )
Still, opinions are only that, and no real basis can be established for a qualification like that; So oh well.
Anyway, perhaps I'm of the idea the synthetic and pharmaceutical and singular and potent are not necessarily synonymous with useful. In fact, you are in a minority sir. I'd wager quite confidently that the most experienced and influential psychonauts prefer(red) a Shamanic and Entheogenic approach to their exploration. Of course, this was before the advent of RCs, but even the entheogenic of these are derivatives or analogues of naturally occuring compounds, (and this is becoming a tangent.).

Note: Reference to witches stems from their HISTORICAL use of Datura and other Deliriant plants, like Atropa Belladonna and Mandrake.

You seem to be not reading my posts either.. The value of Datura comes from it's mystique?! This is ludicrous, and I've stated many times the REAL value of Datura. Perhaps you should re-read that.

I've pushed my limits with DPH and DXM. I PLAYED with that shit when I was thirteen RooRshack. They were of no enthegenic value to me, nor were they of any benefit to my colleagues. The limits of these are entire levels of consciousness from those of real, serious deliriants.

You may think whatever it is you like RooRshack, and I wish you luck in any endeavors.
Nonetheless, I couldn't disagree with you more, and this has become much less a discussion than an argument, at least as far as I can tell.


On a final (and repetitive now) note, your personal experience will always vary in many ways to that of others, and an uncooperative (even blatantly conflicting) perspective is not wrong; just different. Your current plot in life will always change, and fluidity is important man. You're too rigid I think, but to each his own.

 

when are you gonna come down, when are you gonna land ??

 

I often don't understand your vague posts orison319.

 

Part of my point was about extreme overuse on your part, dulling what you can gain from things.

Being a psychonaut doesn't mean psychedelic gluttony, that's like eating a gallon of supermarket house brand ice cream, when you could have a small serving of gelato and gain more from it.

So yeah, heavy long term weed use might keep some people from gaining much from it, and taking DXM or DPH at 13 will fuck up most people's brains.... I know some people that totally ruined themselves with that sort of douchebaggery.

Also, learn to abstract (this at the post below) You don't seem to have any ability to read implication.

While I'm answering your post from the past here: No, I don't speak as though I'm all knowing.... but I can abstract. And I can see that for most people (being schizo because you decided to binge on DXM at 13 might be a reason for exception) breaking your acetylcholine system is NOT a positive thing, at least not on any regular kind of schedule. There are medical reasons for doing so, but not for risking your life to see shit. That's nearly beyond comprehension for someone who likes tryptamines and phenethylamines and cannabinoids, like myself. I would be, (for the umpteenth time) interested in carefully dosed antichollergenics, of the sort orison's described. Others have described safe, careful dosing of these chemicals, you've described reckless deadly use, voodoo about their absorbtion rates, etc, and then act like I shouldn't have a problem with datura. YOU are why everyone is so anti-datura.

About being a psychonaut, are you saying that you're ALSO not very experienced with chems? Or saying that to be a psychonaut, you don't need to be a glutton? Because one second you're saying you must use and abuse your body in every way, the next you're saying 7 trips is all you need and that you should use your body to it's fullest potential (regular use of datura, obviously, rather lowers it's potential, given that it's entire potential depends on acetylcholine doing it's job)

Maybe I'll come back and rant in the morning, I'm passing out.

 

Really? Because I didn't read that.
What I read was this:

This one's contradiction and fallacy ought to be apparent.
Implication and abstraction are moot in the face of blatant verbal contradiction.
(In the same vein, first you say that my use is dangerous due to overindulgence, but then you have already given credence to Fritz's method of continued dosing of this substance over a period of time to reach effect, (which also has greater potential to cause lasting effects, due to the length of the experience and the toxicity of hyoscyamine and atropine (compared to scopolamine).)).
I find these things to be due to common perception bias, since you have obviously taken a disliking to me.
This is only one of the many contradictions and obvious fallacies in your arguments, but I have only chose to make point of it to demonstrate to you that you are indeed highly contradicting and often, hmm.. Wishy-Washy? You bounce all over the arguments, and you often make points that conflict with, augment adversely, or negate your other arguments.)

But let's assume that's what you meant..
I would hardly class six experiences as gross indulgence. (There were actually seven, but one was bunk and nothing happened.)
Additionally, you have no idea what I have gained, or the extent of it's influence.

On a related note, you seem to be very talented at making assumptions and manipulating language. You state that my schizophrenia was caused by mild dissociatives at age 13! I didn't even begin to experience symptoms until I was fifteen, and even then, it was resultant of a friendship I made with a chemist who was making LSD and is now in prison for stealing from his university. The LSD binge led to an approximately four month long case of HPPD, which subsided entirely by the sixth month. Following another short while, I began to experience schizophrenic symptoms.

Furthermore, I have not broken my acetlycholine system ever. A temporary suspension of the ability to bind acetlycholine to receptors is not a breaking down of an entire bodily system like neurotransmission.

I'd also like to know where I've described reckless, deadly use of this substance. Actually, I'd say that I'm the person providing the most useful dosing methods for this drug, considering the toxicity of the alkaloids present in the Datura seeds is exponentially more dangerous than that of a topical scopolamine paste.

Oh, and you have no timeline for the experiences, so you have no clue as to whether or not my homeostatic balance was restored; which in fact it was.

Voodoo about absorption rates? Where have I ever talked about absorption rates? I've spoken of the inability of hyoscyamine and atropine to pass easily through the dermal barrier..

I also don't expect anything from anyone, and I most definitely don't expect YOU to recognize your errors.



You'd do very well, RooRshack, to not put words into anyone's mouth.
Never have I EVER stated that you must "use and abuse your body in every possible way"! There are many substances that I do not condone, including alcohol, which you seem to love. Neither have I EVER said that seven trips is all you need. There is no quantifiable dose or number of experiences, and the notion of it is absurd, what with individual variance being of such drastic importance.
(And regarding the only legitimate question I find in that last paragraph of yours, I'm VERY experience with chemicals, many of which are not entheogens and are detrimental to the cause.)

Let me give you a hint buddy; I am writing exactly what I mean. There is no need for abstraction or expanding into underlying meanings, implications, or thoughts with me. I find that to only muddy the discussion.

You speak as if you are all-knowing RooRshack, when in fact you have only secondhand knowledge on this subject, and it is very limited and focused on negative aspects at that. Research can only take you so far.

Exploration, analysis, and utilization of your self and Existence for real, lasting benefit.. THAT is what being a psychonaut is about.

 

you may be getting to high then..,

Thou shall lead you the way though, and pay attention everyone. I only show you one time mmks..








https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQs_7GBHhUY&feature=related"]Billy Joel & Elton John - Goodbye Yellow Brick Road (Live) - YouTube

 

I'm not even high right now though.. I've been sober since this morning's first bowl, around eight, in fact.

Also, I'm trying to gain a broader empirical knowledge of the natural world, but I am unfamiliar with the species of flower in your post. Is it Datura? The shape of the flower may be correct. The stigma and anther look incorrect though, as do the leaves, and lack of fruit.
Of course, I only have experience with Angel's Trumpet.

 

yellow datura, yes.. http://mgonline.com/media/Images/d/datura_In-Maine01.jpg

 

Oh! It's Brugsmania, not Datura. (Though they're closely related.)
Brusgmania is nice because it's prettier, and it also does not contain hyoscyamine, which is nice for those who don't use paste and choose to ingest their poison.
Mostly it's just much more pretty though haha.