Why is anti-Christian bigot running the Christianity section?

I am not sure where you got the 1 Million figure for Communist China, the lowest Estimate I have seen is around 35 Million, same with Cambodia. Your final tally of death from communism is pretty consistent with my own research however (around 110 Million at minimum). Crusades I have found between 1 and 3 million. Spanish Inquisition it's hard to get a number on but yours are about the higher end. Holocaust about 11 million in total. As for the conquistadors, most numbers have been inflated because they measure death over such a long percids (generally 100 years) rather than the direct result of the actual conquest (generally a few million perhaps). The Muslim Invasion of India looks about right in your estimate. I could throw the French wars of religion which totaled about 4 million. So let's add those up and with the Invasion of India (which I had neglected in my initial estimates) does bring it pretty close. But again that is over a much longer period of time. 1000 years vs. the 100 years of communism.

 

I don't know how this came up on a thread complaining about the person "running" the Christian section, whoever that might be. Rummell, the political scientist who coined the term to include "the intentional killing of an unarmed or disarmed person by government agents acting in their authoritative capacity and pursuant to government policy or high command," estimated 43 million democides for the Soviet Union during Stalin's regime. In 2005, he revised upward his total for Chinese communist democide from 35,702,000 to 73,000,000 due to additional information about Mao's culpability in the Great Chinese Famine. Reevaluating China’s Democide to 73,000,000 His previous figure for Communist China was 35, 236,000.DEATH BY GOVERNMENT: GENOCIDE AND MASS MURDER
This put his total estimate of Communist state democides between 1900 and 1999 at about 148 million, instead of the previous 110 million. Other scholars put the Chinese total in from 60,000,000 to a high 70,000,000. (Ibid). The estimate that you site is curiously (unbelivably) low ball. Your table is impressive, but it doesn't give the source. And waddabout North Korea? And Cuba?

 

If religious wars "go back to prehistory", we have no records of them--by definition. As for the historic ones, I have problems with the comparisons. comparing democides of the twentieth century with religious wars of previous centuries is apples and oranges ( I realize it was Scarecrow who first made the comparison): (1) The concept of democide excludes deaths from wars. It would be like including U.S. killings during the Vietnam war, Afghanistan, and Iraq--which would certainly get our numbers way up there. (2) as Scarecrow pointed out, the figures for the religious conflicts cover a much longer time span. (3)The quality of the data must be considered. Figures from back then are notoriously unreliable. (4) And do these figures include killings by both sides? For example, both Christian and Muslim forces during the Crusades? Of course the figures on Communism were only for Communist countries. (5) Were all of those primarily religious wars? I think the conquistadors were driven by other motives, like loot. Do the figures for the Holocaust refer to the Nazi experience? If so, was that primarily a "religious" phenomenon? (Of course, Judaism is a religion, but the Nazi gripe against Jews was their perceived race.)

 

But on the matter of Skip's rules, it's my understanding they were designed to put some control on Bible thumping and proselytizing, which does seem to be a problem for some Christians. I think most of us value our own opinions, but those who think they have a corner on truth and it's "My way or the Highway" (to Hell) can be overbearing.

 

If we can push the off-topic discourse a little farther, I think it's arguable that both Communism and Nazism were secular religions, and may be what happens when a spiritual void develops that people need to fill. Both offered pseudo-science to persuade followers that they rode the wave of history and would enjoy a glorious destiny after the forces of evil (capitalists and Jews, respectively) had been liquidated. The egalitarian nationalism of the French Revolution would be another example, as would be the libertarian "Objectivism" of Ayn Rand.

 

Yes, we would, but we would chalk them up to secularism instead of theism. The definitions of terms is a matter of usefulness. They can't be proven right or wrong. Most scholars in the field of religious studies find it useful to consider religions as clusters of attributes: creed (beliefs about the meaning of life), code (rules to follow) cultus (ritual expression) and community (in-group bonding). Stephen Prothero. God Is Not One. Catherine L. Albanese, America:
Religions and Religion; Berkson, Cultural Literacy for Religion Cultural Literacy for Religion : The Great Courses - Mark Berkson - 2012 - MINT! | eBay These and others acknowledge the existence of eastern "godless" religions. Houston Smith, World Religions."4 C's" in Buddhism - Free Essay Example | PapersOwl.com
Module 4Module 4 Discussion Contains unread posts Is Confucianism a “religion” according to our working definition? Does it have the four “C”s: Creed, Code, Cult and Community? Why or why not? - Best nursing assignment writers You, of course, are entitled to use a different terminology, but should be aware it isn't universally shared.

Referring to mass totalitarian movements as "secular religions" is admittedly using the term metaphorically, as an analogy. It calls attention to the fact that they perform functions for individual believers and social structures that support them similar to those of theistic religions, For individuals, they provide cognitive mapping of reality, relief from existential anxieties and common learned behaviors from trusted leaders. For societies and their elites, they offer a means to social solidarity, control and legitimacy.

The first attempt to create a secular religion, very explicitly, occurred during the French Revolution. The Culte de la Raison (Cult of Reason), "an explicit religion of man" devoted to the attainment of Truth and Liberty through the exercise of Reason (Kennedy, 1989. A Cultural History of the French Revolution,p. 343) , converted churches across the nation to Temples of Reason, and replaced the Christian alter at the Notre Dame cathedral with an altar to Liberty, before which burned the flame of Truth, complete with worship services involving a Goddess of Liberty and her attendants. A national Festival of Reason was held in November. None of these avowed atheistic revolutionaries actually believed the "goddess" was a real supernatural being, but they were obviously trying to generate the same reverence for Reason and Liberty that the priests of the previous regime generated for the Christian God. The cult was superseded by a Deistic religion introduced by Robespierre, the Cult of the Supreme Being.

For Communism, the creed is Marxism-Leninism, aka. "scientific socialism aka. dialectical materialism, derived from standing metaphysician Georg Hegel "on his head" and substituting class and material relations for ideas in the dialectic. The code is class warfare, dictatorship of the proletariat ,and worker control of the means of production, atheism, etc.. Cultus includes the symbols and rituals of communism: the hammer and sickle, raised fist salutes, the Internationale, use of the term "comrade" for party members, May Day parades, etc. And community is the collectivist system united by sharing these attributes. For National Socialism, the creed is nationalism and racial purity, as outlined in Mein Kampf,. The code is the Fuehrer principle: follow the leader. The cultus includes the arm bands, torchlight parades,stiff-armed salutes, goosetepping, the Horst Wessel Song and Deutschland Uber Alles, and all those sexy uniforms.

Both the theistic and secular brands are fully capable of generating violence and atrocities. "The end justifies the means" became a cardinal principle of both secular systems, as well as fanatical religious ones. Not all theistic religions and secular religions lead to this. The Quakers have an outstanding record in the peace department, and so far the western democracies have managed to keep their nationalism under control. But it's useful to understand that the potential is there, and dangerous to assume that secular ideologies and political systems can't lead to democide.

 

Stephen Prothereo is a respected scholar but like most of us is probably wrong about a lot of stuff. I think it would be a disaster to have Bible studies in the public schools. Basic literacy in world religions might work, but I'd be leary, because it would provide an opening for indoctrination. (Prothero, BTW, is a big promoter of the "religious literacy" idea, so he may see a market for his book).

Not that I know of. I do, applying their concepts. But again, this is a metaphor or analogy, calling attention to basic similarities.
Anyway I know many people define religion in broad terms.

Who said I did? They are basic processes that lead to belief systems. Yes the same can be found to some extent in democracies and republics, but more intensely in monarchies (divine kingship; divine right of kings), and certainly in primitive tribal societies. Durkheim made a name for himself showing that primitive religion was essentially the worship of society, functioning mainly to knit the tribe together around ideas and ceremonies of the sacred.

The cult was backed by important leaders and factions of the Revolution, especially Momora, the Jacobin commander Fouché , the Hebertists and the Sans culottes (pantless). As I mentioned it was replaced by a Deistic version introduced by Robespierre, who also didn't last long. But it wasn't officially abolished until Napoleon. It was an attempt to establish a secular alternative to theistic religion. I gave it as an illustration of the most explicit effort to do so.

Not "proofs". Indicators.

Surely you notice a qualitative difference between mass mobilization in totalitarian societies and patriotic exercises in ours. But it is true that there are quasi-religious elements in some of the ceremonies connected with patriotism, especially the flag. Back in the sixties, when folks were burning those, some were arrested under ordinances banning desecration of a venerated object. Desecration? Venerated? I often hear that so & so member of the armed services gave his or her life for the flag. I doubt that that's literally true, but it suggests a certain success in patriotic conditioning to a national symbol. On my first visit to a Baptist church, I was shocked to see the flag displayed along with the cross, and the pledge of allegiance incorporated into the opening ceremony.

Metaphors and analogies are useful in calling attention to similarities, but as I said it is also useful to distinguish between secular and theistic, deistic, polytheistic or panentheistic religions, the latter including belief in supernatural beings or metaphysical forces. Most people don't think of secular religions as religions, but they should be aware of the similarities and dangers.

 

You used the term "proof" which means "evidence sufficient to persuade a reasonable person that a particular fact exists." Definition of PROOF
I was not trying to prove anything, only to apply as set of criteria to a phenomenon in support of a proposition. You seem to be a reasonable person, but I doubt that I could ever persuade you to accept the analogy.

That's your prerogative. It's not a term in general use, although I'm not the first to use it. Secular religion - Wikipedia
Gates, Donald K.; Steane, PetTotalitarian Movements and Political Religions.er (2009). "Political Religion - The Influence Of Ideological And Identity Orientation". 10 (3/4): 303–325.
Emilio Gentile (2006) Politics as a Religion.

 

You don't know what I mean by mass mobilization or patriotic exercises? .I was using the term "mobilization" the way the term is used in social mobilization theory
What Is Social Mobilization?
Social Mobilization and Political Development on JSTOR
meaning of social mobilization - Yahoo Video Search Results
Social mobilization
Mass mobilization relates to mass society theory.Mass Society Theory: Definition & Examples - Video & Lesson Transcript | Study.com
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/9780470674871.wbespm473
I think it was Karl Deutsch who described social mobilization as a process by which old associations are broken down (old time religion) and people are made available for new identities. (e.g., nationalism) Nationalism and Social Communication.That's what totalitarian systems are designed to do.
In Origins of Totalitarianism Hannah Arendt showed us how totalitarian societies like Communist and Fascist regimes differ from old-fashioned authoritarian ones like the Roman Empire in making a concerted effort to mobilize its citizens and getting them involved in the national cult.
Hannah Arendt, totalitarianism, and the social sciences - Contemporary Political Theory
The Totalitarian Ideology: A Tool for Mobilization
Totalitarian System - an overview | ScienceDirect Topics
Mass Formation and Consequent Totalitarian Behavior in Homo Sapiens
A patriotic exercise would include the flag salute, singing of the national anthem, Fourth of July fireworks and speeches, May Day Parades, etc. We encounter these at football games and other athletic events. The Oklahoma Philarmonic begins every concert by having the audience stand and sing the national anthem.

I'm saying it's useful to make such a distinction.

I don't think of them as proofs. They are criteria. I don't expect to prove to you that this is the only way, the right way, or even the best way of identifying a religion. I'm saying that the cluster approach is a way that seems to be used by most scholars in the field,, as a way to avoid problems in structural and functional approaches.

Nothing.

 

It might help to go back and see how we got here. I think it all started with a post by Scarecrow:
"As for what is responsible for the most death. Communism has killed way more than all religious wars in the past millennium combined." As i mentioned, that was inaccurate, and an "apples and oranges" comparison, because it equates wars and democides. However, on the basis of our best information it would be accurate if we substitute "democides" for wars and use a comparable time frame. Religious democides would include victims of the Inquisitions, witch hunts, and pogroms. Communism, an officially atheist movement, is responsible for more democides than that by several orders of magnitude. I added "it's arguable that both Communism and Nazism were secular religions, and may be what happens when a spiritual void develops that people need to fill." Note the phrasing: It's arguable that..." And you seem to be taking issue with that? It's not even arguable? As pointed out, I am by no means the first person to make that comparison.
Is communism a form of religion? - Quora
Communism is Religion – Internet Infidels
Communism as a religion | TheArticle
Marxism-Leninism offers its believers scientific assurance of what will happen in the future. Khruschev could confidently tell Eisenhower :"We will bury you?"
It has revered scriptures: Das Kapital; The Communist Manifesto; The State and Revolution, etc. True believers think these books contain absolute Truth (based on science, no less) It holds rallies and ceremonies and uses anthems and symbols to rally support. Has a code of conduct (liquidate capitialism; agitprop; dictatorship of the proletariat; "I will go where the Party sends me". Sends heretics to the gulags.What doesn't it have? God. If that is the quintessential ingredient, then I guess it's not a religion. Nothing to be gained in comparing it to one, cuz they just have no similarities. Some people now are saying the Republican Party is becoming a cult, but that can't be right. It has a Dear Leader who can tell them he won the 2020 eection and they believe him. They compare him to King David and even Jesus Christ. And they're taking action to bring about his second coming. Not to worry. Cults are about God, and they haven't gone that far yet.

In discussions of political reality, it's always important to use judgment. You're employing the reductio ad absurdum technique by abandoning that and stretching the analogy to its ultimate farfetched extreme. I think most of us can recognize the difference between a movement people are willing to die for and a sporting event, although I must admit some fans get carried away. BTW, promoting good sportsmanship, etc., is a code, not a creed. Neither the rules of baseball nor Schlossberg's The new Baseball Bible come close to eliciting the same devotion of the real Bible, or the writings of Marx, Engels, and Lenin. Rules of a game bear some similarity to laws of government and religion, but most of us recognize the difference between those and real life. An analogy is only as good as its utility. I think the secular religion analogy is useful with reference to certain mass political movement. The sports analogy is not.

I think I've covered this sufficiently in the posts above, and will waste no frther time on it. I'll let others address it if they are inclined. It's rooted in classic reduction ad absurdum techniques that require us to suspend judgment. I do wonder though why it's so important to you to deny that Communism has taken more lives by democide than any other political movement the world has known--that is according to most estimates--especially if we use Rummell's figure of 73 million lives for Communist China instead of the 1 million you stated..

 

I think I've addressed it amply, too. Apparently, I haven't convinced you, but that's nothing new. Seems to me further discussion would be futile. It doesn't mean your objections are valid either. Some arguments may be valid, others specious. Since I doubt anyone else is following, it's just you and me, and I think we've apparently reached an impasse.

I'm not attributing divine origins to any religious or political movement. But I do distinguish between a movement or political system and a strictly conventional game. Although there may be some real sports fanatics, I think it's a stretch to see them as similar to the religious faithful.

Is it your impression that you've come to the truth of this matter? I happen to think my own arguments are pretty sound.

 

Hmmm. Seems to me there are some methodological issues here. Are you suggesting that any action taken by an officially Christian government can legitimately be attributed to Christianity, was motivated by Christianity, and wouldn't have otherwise happened if it weren't for Chrstianity? Gemerally speaking, Christian missionaries weren't conducive to our survival, but there were notable exceptions. Let's take and example I'm familiar with. I'm writing to you from Oklahoma instead of Tennessee, Kentucky, Alabama or Mississippi because my Chickasaw forebears were dumped here by the U.S. government. The forced move cost my ancestors many lives. Should I blame Christians or a Christian government for that? I don't think of Andrew Jackson as much of a Christian, and the folks behind the land grab were white farmers who simply wanted our land. The chief opponent of the Indian Removal Act was Jeremiah Evarts, a Christian missionary, citing the Christian principles of love, care, mercy and humility. South of the border, Spanish Dominican monks, notably Bartolome de las Casas were vocal in defending the rights of indigenous people, enlisting the support of Cardinal Ximenes. Ferdinand and Isabella of Spain forbade enslavement of indigenous people in their colonies.

Another issue is simply the reliability of figures on body counts. The death toll of indigenous people in the Americas is estimated at about 56 million over a century. However, it's also estimated that at least 90% of those death were the result of disease instead of democide. European colonizers killed so many Native Americans that it changed the global climate, researchers say | CNN
Europeans became immune to diseases by exposure to farm animals that the indigenous peoples didn't have. There was a notable but rare instance in which smallpox contaminated blankets were deliberately distributed by the British to kill Native Americans in 1763 during the French and Indian wars. Finding a religious motive for that would be difficult..Of course there were plenty of killings ("The only good Indian is a dead Indian.") But attributing them somehow to Christianity would be quite a stretch.

Then we could consider the same treatment and acts against blacks, Australian aboriginals, India, Imperial China, etc.[/QUOTE]Similar problems arise here. To be sure, the Bible seems to condone slavery, and some slavers and slave owners found biblical justification for their actions. Nevertheless, other Christians found biblical reasons to oppose slavery. Italian Capuchin Franciscan missionaries obtained from the Inquisition (which admittedly had its own share of democides) a general condemnation of the slave trade. Christians dominated the anti-slavery movements by Wilberforce in England and abolitionists in America were dominated by Christians.

As for Australian aboriginals, India, and Imperial China, you'd have to present some evidence that religion--as opposed to land hunger and international power politics--had a role to play in any of it.

If we're talking democide, we must leave out religious and other wars, by definition. Otherwise, it's apples and oranges. We would have to add all the fatalities from Soviet invasions of Eastern Europe and Red China's battles with the Nationalists. If we're talking democide, technology may not be a relevant factor for the Communists, although admittedly the Nazis used Zyklon B in their gas chambers. The gulags and Chinese internment camps were pretty low tech.

Because we're comparing democides by Christians to those of Marxist-Leninists, and those governments weren't around 5,000 years ago. (Neither were Christians), and reliable figures on democides by Israelites, Assyrians, Babylonians, etc,. in the name of religion are far and few between. The Israelites supposedly practiced cherem with Canaanites, sacrificing conquered peoples in wars of destruction--but it's hard to assess the validity of the claims. The Aztecs also chalked up quite a few deaths in their sacrifices, but there again, the reliability of the data has been questioned. Deaths are deaths, but comparing democides over 5,000 or 1,000 years doesn't capture the enormity of the fact that Communist regimes killed 110 million (or was it 148 million?) people in the space of 104 years. (Actually, it might be more than that, if we include the Uhigurs and Fulan Gong.)