Why I don't argue/debate Christians anymore

You dont know how much any of the people posting on this thread get out
Posting takes about, five minutes? ten if you use some thought..

 

As someone once said, the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath. My job keeps me from attending church services, yet my job involves helping others that are injured or sick. I work in a Christian hospital.

 

Well, you only needed to ask Him once, if your heart is true.

 

Wasn't there that story Jesus told about getting your ox out of a ditch on the Sabbath?

besides, if we live each day of our life with God in our hearts and minds and at the root of our actions, does the Sabbath then become moot?

 

The Sabbath does whatever you want it to do at your convenience. You know you're not going to Hell anyway. The real sabbath is on Saturday. I don't know if anyone mentioned that...this thread is too long. And who knows when Saturday really is. Just every so often give yourself a break and chill wit' da Lord. Break out the Budweisers and watch football on the couch next to a Bible.

 

I believe you.

So you can cast aside those people who have years of research and learning under their belt? Let's talk about "obvious and plain."

Stan thought Wendy was really hot stuff.

What does it mean? Easy, it means that Stan found Wendy to have the quality of being attractive and exciting. That's what it means... to US. Someone from another culture might be quite confused by this phrase. They might see it as "Stan thinks Wendy is composed of burning materials." The Bible USES colloquialisms, metaphor, and hyperbole. Without any cultural or historical context, these become VERY difficult (if not straight up impossible) to understand.

And they are making the same mistake you do. The balanced approach is one that reads the texts inside their context and THEN formulates an idea. Don't read the scripture with a concept in mind and then read that concept into a passage.

Ahhh... now, without using historical and cultural context, can you please demonstrate how their interpretation is incorrect? Keep in mind that if you refer to the definition of a word or concept in the Greek or Hebrew, then you are falling back onto cultural understandings, and cultural and historical contexts. AND you are not relying on scripture to point it out, you are relying on the knowledge of men.

According to whom?

Do you understand the point I am making? You cannot say "this is what the Bible says" as a defense against the argument I am making because I am addressing how one (and specifically you) come to understand "what the Bible says." I don't think that the Mormons or JWs have it right, but I can fall back on the argument that they take passages out of historical and cultural context, they interpret words in ways that are not consistent with the language used within that epoch of time. But if they say that they prayed and the Holy Spirit led them to read those passages that way then you have no argument against them. What makes your Holy Spirit more compelling than theirs (and still don't forget, you cannot rely on what scripture says in this argument because the issue is the reliability of methods used to interpret scripture).

Look, I do not discount the guidance of the Spirit. I really don't. But the idea that it is the ONLY way to understand what scripture says really relegates the issue to personal opinion. You MUST have a proper hermeneutic when interpreting and reading the scripture in order to read it for all that it is worth.

By the way, thanks for not answering any of the questions in my last post. Tell me, do you read your Bible in English or in Greek and Hebrew?

 

Can you demonstrate how the JWs Bible is incorrect?

The Jehovah's Witnesses Bible was translated by Johannes Greber's wife, who just happed to be a Spirit Medium. Spirit-Mediums have been condemned by the God of the Bible. Some of her translations have take scripture in the oppsite direction, which should come as no surprise. JW's don't believe in the Holy Spirit or Jesus the way Christians do. Any verse that has revealed that Jesus was God has been removed or changed in their Bible. Their new world translation has been condemned by scholars world wide as more of a work of deception, than scolarship. Understand this about Jehovah's Witnesses, they went into the Bible with a belief, and changed the Bible to fit that belief, not the other way around. The founder of their religion, Charles Taze Russel stated that no one could understand the Bible without his insight. So to make it easier for the faithful, he had the Bible altered. Thousands of verses had to be changed to get the Book to agree with their doctrine, and this is why scolars have condemed their Bible world wide.

Mormons reject the Bible as stated in their new Bible. "Fools think the Bible is enought!" 2 Nephi 29:6 Again their New Bible takes you also in another direction, which also should come as no surprise.

I read my Bible in English, yet I have sought understanding in Greek and Hebrew when in doubt. There is much that can be understood by the common man in Scripture, yet their are passages and chapters that are mysteries, and can only be understood if God reveals this knowledge to you. The prophecies about America are like this. It appears in just the last few years many Christians are discovering these prophecies. Some by word of mouth, others by God's supernatural revelation.

Sorry I can't answer all of your questions, but if you might of noticed. It's about 20 to 1 here. And time is not always on my side.

 

I think it probably has meanings on several levels, of which one might be this (though it sounds a bit funny, bear with me);

A cell in an organism lives in complete harmony with every other cell in that body. Though we are not aware of each cell in our body, we depend on their well-being and they depend on ours (and each other's).

I believe our relationship with god is very similar to a cell's relationship with its organism.


So in a way we're god's of our own little godly kingdom, and when human beings can live as harmoniously with each other and other component cells of the divine entity as the cells within our own bodies, then God's kingdom will be about us.

 

You once told me that good works dont get you into heaven, only following strictly the bible. Your work is no excuse.

 

I follow Jesus... who is the Lord of the Sabbath... Keep in mind the new convanent.

 

so when it comes down to it its all pick and choose.

 

No, what it comes down to is the stage of intervention of God that we are in. In the OT times they followed the Father and the specific rules he gave. Then came the New Covanent Jesus who fulfilled the Law of the Father. When Jesus left the Holy Spirit was with us and we worship Jesus, who is the image of God. With Christ's example the Bible was recorded and became a special revelation, God's written words, for Christians to follow and learn. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are all one, yet they all had specific purposes. We are living in the days of the Holy Spirit and all we have left is the revealing of Christ as God when He comes back.


"Look, he is coming with the clouds,
and every eye will see him,
even those who pierced him;
and all the peoples of the earth will mourn because of him. So shall it be! Amen."

-Revelation 1:7

 

surely thats your perspective, not "what it comes down to"

 

Yes it is my perspective... but my perspective is filtered through what the Bible says... so ultimately it is the Bible's perspective. Most Sincere Christians believe this.

 

Colours, following strictly the Bible is good works, and even that will not get you to heaven. Having a relationship with Christ, and being Born Again into His family is what gives you everlasting life.

Now to put your mind to rest on me working on the Sabbath, there is a story in Matthew 12 that address the issue.

Going on from that place, he went into their synagogue, and a man with a shriveled hand was there. Looking for a reason to accuse Jesus, they asked him, ''Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath?'' He said to them, ''If any of you has a sheep and it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will you not take hold of it and lift it out? How much more valuable is a man than a sheep! THEREFORE IT IS LAWFUL TO DO GOOD ON THE SABBATH.'' Then he said to the man, ''Stretch out your hand.'' So he stretched it out and it was completely restored, just as sound as the other. But the Pharisees went out and plotted how they might kill Jesus.''

Colours, It was Jesus who stated it was lawful to do good on the Sabbath.

 

The only authority I have is the Word of God. I never knew about testing the spirits, until I read about it in the Bible. And so when I did test the spirits one evening, to my shock I discovered they were not from God. And after six months and the help of other Christians I was free of them. These spirits were demons that hated Christ and everthing He stood for. They stated that He died but never rose again, they said He was a false prophet, they said they were greater than Him, ect. And that is why the Bible tells us to test the spirits, because behind every angle of light, you just might find a demon.

 

Campbell...what spirits are you referring to, and how did you "test" them? Sounds more like an exorcism.

 

I believe I was around 23 at the time, and as I tried to get closer to Christ there seem to be something in my life that kept blocking my walk with Him, and I found it hard to focus on my Bible. I felt their was this invisible wall their, but I could not put my finger on it. So one night I prayed to Christ and told Him, I felt there was somthing that was between Him and I that was blocking my walk with Him. I said if there was somthing evil doing this would He show me. It was about 12:30 A.M. when I said that prayer and thought little of it. When I got home I just sat down in a chair and was getting ready for bed when all of a sudden I had this feeling that there was a thousand eyes in the room looking at me. Now I was 23 years old and a pretty big kid, but a fear came over me that I had never experienced. I remember shaking and making sure their was a light on all the way up to my bedroom. When I got into bed I started to hear the beat of drums, and some kind of chanting you would expect to hear from some kind of African tribe, and from out of thin air. I ask Christ to take it away, and it vanished as suddenly as it came. Yet this was just the beginning of a struggle I had with the demonic, and I never thought my simple prayer would trigger anything like this. I can tell you this, if I had any doubts about the existance of a real Satan. All my doubts were erased that night. I could tell you of many experiences with the demonic, but the end result was, they had to leave. And I was freed from their more obvious attacks. I met a group of Christians who many years ago use to meet in the basement of the crete Il. public library.
It was through their ministery that God freed me. And yes, it was pretty much an exorcism. How ever, it was much more mild than what some would think of, and only because the spirit activity was more oppression, than possion.

 

If you went through, what I went throught, then I know you had a hard time of it. It's almost impossible to explain what happen to us to anyone. In a world of such advances, who would believe that demonic spirits are the root cause of what we experienced. And yet you know, and so do I.

 

Sounds like a very scary time to have gone through...I don't doubt your story at all. I definitely believe that there are evil spirits and have usually thought of this type of thing as happening to people who mess around with occultism, but from what you describe it was an answer to your prayer, in a way you didn't expect.