Why I don't argue/debate Christians anymore

i never knew the story of revelation was so complex. Where do you get all of this, from interpretation of the text of revelation?

 

I don't know where he gets it, either.

For very different look at Revelation and its interpretation, consider partial preterism (explained here)

And for a more complete study, try the links here

Campbell, JD4U, I am very interested to see what you make of the articles in these links.

 

Mr. Asshole... I meant Mr. Asshole to you....

 

?? Seriously, I can't tell if you are joking or not, cuz I have a feeling that God is lovin us.

Umm? Jesus only knows what God reveals to Jesus.

Maybe.

 

Maybe? If the Bible was not inspired by God then all your quotes to me are meaningless... The Bible has no authority if it was not inspired... perhaps you should check your foundation of faith. The Bible: the true words of God or a book of lies.

 

but they aren't...

...

God's here.

Ask God.

 

The Bible has no authority if it was not inspired...

Ummmm...

What makes the Bible different than any other religious text? Why don't you ever quote the Koran Kharakov?

 

The words in it.

Because I'm talking to christians. I (sometimes) do when I talk to muslims.

 

Are you saying that the Bible and the Koran have the same authority but it is up to a personal preverence to which you choose?

 

No. I said exactly what I meant. You are adding on to the words of my post, so do not understand it- Relax.

Anyway, they are both made by God, but for different purposes. God gives the book to some, and the message to others.

 

Alright im trying to understand...

Can someone who follows the Koran go to Heaven and someone also who follows the Bible go to heaven?

 

Yes, when they stop following the book and realise they are following God.

 

So is it safe to say that you believe that although people may call God a different name that he is the same God and no matter what religious text you follow one can still go to heaven...

 

And there is where the confusion is.

Your definition of evil is based upon moral absolutism.

Freesmile and I are using a definition based more upon consequentialism.

Even your definition of what is good and what is evil is dependent on theism.

This debate is fruitless.

Judaeo-Christian religions

In the Hebrew Scriptures, evil is related to the concept of sin — "sin" translated in Hebrew is chata which means "missing the mark" (a term from archery).

In Judaism and Christianity, evil refers to those aspects of human behaviour that are contrary to the Ten Commandments. Evil is thus directly correlated to disobedience: the Commandments are a guideline for "what not to do". In the forms of malice and selfishness, evil represents the socially weakening and destructive behaviors that lead directly to a fruitless life and death. On a more abstract level, "Evil" refers to the lack of faith in God, the end result of which is separation from Him.

In many Abrahamic faiths, evil is personified as Satan, a challenger of the law or will of God. Satan is defined in Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek writings collectively as the devil, the adversary, false accuser, slanderer, the counterfeit, a liar, a murderer, one with no truth, the serpent, the evil one, the tempter, and a lion prowling around looking for someone to devour. Evil may also be pesonified as spirits or demons who incite acts possess human beings and animals.

Some forms of Christianity do not personify evil in Satan, but instead consider the human heart to be inherently bent toward deceit, although human beings are responsible for their choices.


Note that "self" does not necessarily have to mean "one's self," but also to the various units, groups, and demographics to which one belongs (for example: family, school, team, generation, nationality, race, or religion). The Israelites asked for national repentance of sin while the Christians focus on individual sins. Jewish beliefs and Christian teachings say each person will give an account of all their actions, including faith and obedience.

Some cultures or philosophies believe that evil can arise without meaning or reason (in neo-Platonic philosophy this is called surd evil). Christianity in general does not adhere to this belief.

In the Bible, the story of Job is a bold example of how evil exists and seems at times to be victorious, although Christianity teaches that all have sinned and fall short of the perfection of God and the wages of that missing the mark of that perfection (sin) is death. It is believed that God is in control of all things, especially as its teachings show that Jesus conquered this evil, resulting in death, by being raised from the dead.

For the French philosopher Michel Henry, God is the invisible Life that never stops to generate us and to give us to ourselves in its pathetic self-revelation. God is Love because Love itself in an infinite love is Life. By consequence life is good in itself. The evil corresponds to all what denies or attacks life, it finds its origin in death which is the negation of life. This death is an inner and spiritual death which is the separation with God, and which consists simply in not loving, in living selfishly as if God didn't exist, as if he was not our Father of us all and as if we were not all its beloved Sons, as if we were not all Brothers generated by a same Life. The evil peaks in the violence of hatred that is at the origin of all the crimes, of all the wars and of all the genocides. But the evil is also the common origin of all those blind processes and of all those false abstractions that lead so many people to misery and exclusion.

In other words: According to Christian morality, God is incapable of evil.

Defining consequentialism

Following Broome (Weighing Goods: Equality, Uncertainty and Time, Blackwell,1991), it is common to hold that a moral theory counts as Consequentialism if and only if it fulfills two conditions:

(1) Teleology

Consequentialism is teleological due to its goal-oriented nature. It focuses on the outcomes of actions, placing emphasis on the ends over that of the means. In other words it is concerned with final causes.

(2) Agent-neutrality

Consequentialism is agent-neutral as it holds that value is a 1-place predicate of the form "x is valuable" as opposed to the 2-place predicate "x is valuable for Y". In other words, no specific person (or agent) is considered to be of more or less worth than any other. All agents are treated equally under consequentialist theories, and the person applying the theory is no exception (and therefore can't favor themselves over others).

This leaves open 2 questions:

(3) What is valuable or good (4) The precise relationship between goodness and rightness

Taking Hedonistic-Utilitarianism as our example of a Consequentialist moral theory it holds (1) because it holds that right actions stem from the goodness of consequences. It holds (2) by taking the goodness receieved by agents to hold equal weight, irrespective of their identity. It answers (3) by claiming that pleasure is good and, finally, it answers (4) by saying that the relationship is a "maximizing" one as right actions are those which maximize the good (pleasure).

In other words: Accoring to a consequetial worldview: God is capable of evil.

I don't think we are going to come to any kind of resolvement on this issue.

 

To dumb it down even further:

I believe the Christian god's actions to show him to be the originator of evil.

You believe that the Christian god cannot be evil because evil is not an action or even the result of an action but simply disobedience to the Christian god.

 

Evil is any action that is against the God of the Bible. God did not create evil, but ask of Adam and Eve only one thing. And that was not to eat of the fruit of one tree. Eve did, what God commanded her not to, as a result of HER action, sin entered the human blood line.

 

It's not the text that is the most important thing in our lives, it is God. Of course, the text is a vital part of God's love for us- it helps us understand the love we see and feel.

 

The Book of Revelation is a small part of the prophecy. It requires both the Old And New Testaments together to get the full story. Without the two Testaments together none of it makes any sense. If the Jews only look at the Old Testament, they only see half the story, and if Christians only look at the New Testament, they only get the other half of the story. I requires both Testaments. And I know there are more prophecies that I haven't even got to yet, but much of what I have stated will be found in, Zec. chapter 12, Ezk. chapters 36, 37, 38, 39. Jer. chapters 50 & 51. Isaiah chapters, 13 & 18. The Book of Revelation fills in many of the blanks found in the Old Testament prophecies. When you finally put the whole story together, it's pretty overwhelming. If you go to your local church, it's doubtful they will be able to shed much light on these prophecies, miracles do happen, but that would require more faith than I have. Most churchs feed you a bland diet of politically correct christianity.

 

Yep, again:

I don't think we are going to come to any kind of resolvement on this issue.

Issue dropped.

 

Evil came out of the will of Satan, and evil entered the human blood line when Eve disobeyed God. In both cases, evil manifested itself after choices were made by others, and their actions were independent of Gods will.