Why did God need to sacrifice Jesus to forgive sin?

How is it that you are never complicit in any presentation you make, that is your suggestion that you simply quote scripture without making any personal statement seems to me quite ingenuous but then again perhaps you really believe that the bible causes you to think one way or another.

No, I didn't miss it.

It appears to me that you ignore christ teaching thinking it is not as significant as your old testament considerations. For example the suggestion that turning the other cheek falls short of "divine" justice which you call an eye for an eye, saying it "just" means not to take offense if someone insults you, a minor point. That you believe this suggests that you either ignore the points jesus was making or you simply do not understand them.

Once again you try to lead others to your idolatrous belief in the bible. Acts 17-11 does not suggest anything regarding christ teaching. It says certain jews were more noble than others because they were eager and examined scriptures daily. What does being a more noble jew have to do with christ teaching? Do you regard yourself a more noble jew?
Sometimes I think that you had never read anything for yourself but had someone tell you what things should mean.

I don't accuse you of worshiping the bible. I say you have a defacto idolatrous belief in the bible.

Jesus and the holy spirit are my tangible connection to god.
It is why christ came as a tangible connection to god. He spoke for god to men with ears to hear.

No, you miss the fact that he was put to death for the sins of men. It was not his choice to be put to death but to give his life to the truth. He did not die for us but because of us and that he is resurrected. If he died for us, then why isn't he dead?

Because you believe this, you believe people deserve to be punished. God's last judgement is the same as his first. He saw that man was good, very good. What is stated here is from the mind of a zealous persecutor and appeals to those who find the threat of punishment motivational. The reason they find it motivational is they have a belief in their own indecency.

If we have a failing it is with vision, not with worthiness.

Hey everyone, do your ears itch? Your right, I do not speak for god, I teach as the holy spirit teaches me. The holy spirit teaches me that the children of god are innocent, not guilty as you claim.

I understand that you believe in an original inherited state of sin but you have misinterpreted. Sin is not inherited, it is taught.

 

Oh I understand what you are saying and if you want to believe it fine, just don't try to make out it is a Bible teaching, because it is not.

For literally thousand of years God had the Israelites offer Blood sacrifices according to the Law and these prefigured the Christ's sacrifice. This is what the Bible teaches, now if you don't want to except it or if you want to believe something else that is your right but like I say just don't call it a Bible teaching.

PS when you make comments to different people in the same post, I often will miss your comments directed at me. Time constraints and yes, sometimes shear boredom, do not allow me to read every single post in a thread thoroughly and if a comment is buried in a post directed at someone else, I can easily over look it.

 

Never complicit in any presentation I make? Well in this case it is true. I only quoted the scriptures ans so if you have a problem with them you should take it up with God.

It seems that you never miss a chance to dismiss what God's Word says if it doesn't agree with you.

Good, I wouldn't want you to miss a Christ teaching that disagrees with you.

You see, you keep calling out for "christ teaching" and ignore the fact that the whole Bible is God's teaching, including what you keep trying separate off as Christ teaching. Even the Christ many times said; because I have not spoken out of my own impulse, but the Father himself who sent me has given me a commandment as to what to tell and what to speak. (John 12:49) This is something you don't want to know or understand.

As for the "example" you give, it suggests nothing of the kind, I just know what Jesus was talking about and said so, in fact my doing so shows that I do not ignore what Jesus says.

You got something against Jews? Jesus was one.

As for the Scripture, they were not called "more noble" but "more noble minded", a fact that for some reason you left out. You also conveniently left out, why they were called more noble minded, which is the reason I cited the Scripture in the first place. They were being commended for examining the Scriptures daily, which led them to become true Christians.

You get the weirdest ideas. No, I don't have a "idolatrous belief in the bible" but I do believe that without the Bible as a standard for our beliefs, one could easily be mislead into believing Satan's lies are true.

Then why don't you listen to Jesus? He said that he came to to do God's will not his own and that what had been written before would not pass away but you seem to think Jesus disagreed what had been written.

No, I did not miss that, because that is what I believe.

Didn't you just say that he died for our sins?

Isn't dead for three days long enough for you or doesn't your love and mercy extend that far.

Are you saying that there is nothing that people should be punished for?

True God's last judgement is that man is good but mankind has taken a bit of a detour in between.

What is stated here is inspired of Holy Spirit and your saying another wise is just another example showing that your spirit buddy is not the Holy Spirit ans is misleading you.

There are those who are indecent and are not in any way motivated by a fear of punishment.

Is this your excuse for not reading and understanding the Bible?

If you are being taught by Holy Spirit, shouldn't what you teach at least agree with what God says?

Again, you might want to check with what the Holy Spirit has inspired others to write. You know, that whole "house divided against itself" thing.

The Bible does indicate that sin is with us from birth and maybe even conception. As for sin being taught, I asked you for scriptural proof, I'm still waiting.

 

Also you seemed a bit perturbed by my use of smiley faces and yet you continue with these, a bit hypocritical don't you think?

 

The problem I have is not with god but with your disclaimers that you have no opinion or that you do not contribute to your own assessments of what the "bible says", as though the bible interprets itself. That you believe the bible interprets itself, or gives it's own interpretation is an idolatrous belief, assigning powers and giving your own devotion to an inanimate object that it does not possess or deserve.

Again, I do not dismiss the bible and gods word is a living word. I will not, cannot give my devotion to a book, and I am absolutely certain that I am in no way whatsoever in violation of gods will on this issue or any other. The problem with your premises are not a variance with god but that they do not allow you to see things as they are. You cannot see that you yourself are created in the likeness and image of god, nor can you perceive this truth about your brothers. It is not a failing of your capacities but of the false premises you entertain. That the bible is worthy of devotion as the only and unerrant "living" word of god, is such a false premise. That premise was not and is not, christ teaching, it is some kind of cultural affectation, the private belief of a particular club or tribe.

You are incorrect. I do understand the contents of the bible and the contents of christ teaching, and, christ teaching does not occur throughout the bible, but only with the advent of christ. Mystical references can be found in old testament histories but to turn the other cheek, or I desire mercy not sacrifice, are directly and absolutely opposed to an eye for an eye.
Your premises disregard the fact that christ establishes a new covenant that supercedes in spirit and in true fulfillment the old, that new wine is meant for new skins.


The reason I know this is you persecute my spirit falsely on the basis of your beliefs.

So you are saying that the christ teaching of turning the other cheek is a minor one compared to an eye for an eye and it applies mainly to not taking offense at insults? And this is your knowing of what christ said?
You got something against Jews? Jesus was one.

I left out no fact. I regard everything to be an idea in it's inception. Further, the scripture you quote is not, a saying of christ.

Again, I left nothing out, "because they were eager and examined scriptures daily. " And yes, they are being commended by the writer, not by god, not by jesus. Further many of the "scriptures" you quote did not exist before paul or whoever wrote them. Are you saying there were no "true christians", until many years after the death and resurrection of christ?

The fact is you do have an idolatrous belief in the bible. If you do not believe me, examine your own precepts line by line and compare them to the definition of idolatry.
.

 

I do. I hear the teachings of christ through the living voice of the holy spirit.

Here is an example of how things can be easily misrepresented. By "for" I mean "because of". They tried to kill jesus because they missed the sign of god, sinned. If it was gods plan to have his sons blood as payment then why did jesus ask that they be forgiven because they know not what they do? According to you, they were acting as they had to according to prophecy.

What is merciful about being dead? What quality of mercy comes from death? According to you, when dead, there is nothing.

Absolutely correct!!! Forgive them, they know not what they do!

That belief is sin, missing the sign of god. God is not mistaken in his judgements of his creations. You are not, your own creation. You are not the judge of gods creations.

What was stated is exactly as I describe.

In the first place, there is no such thing as an indecent creation of god. I said
those motivated by the threat of punishment, have a belief in their own indecency.

Do you have a comment as to the verity of what I said?

Which is what in particular? I hear your interpretations of the bible and your complaints about me and I know they have nothing to do with christ teaching.

I am consistent, not divided. You should know that when a man speaks good, he does not speak bad. If he be a mixture of both good and bad, then he would be a house divided against itself. Either make the tree good and it;s fruit good, or make the tree bad and it's fruit bad. You read scripture and think you understand it but you apply it weakly.

Okay, you show me where the bible indicates such a thing and in that very place will be where it doesn't.

 

And if we have need for a messiah, for literally thousands of years they spilled blood to no avail. That is why christ came saying gods words, I desire mercy, not sacrifice. Jesus demonstrated the mercy that god requires, forgive they know not what they do, not, I demand my sons blood as retribution for your violations against me.

No, this is your belief about what the bible teaches. It is the way you tie disparate things together. The bible itself does not teach. Maybe you should not call it a bible teaching but rather your belief about what the bible says. You say you only state what the bible says and if we don't believe you, read the bible and see for ourselves. However, after having done as you suggest and we still see something different, then you lapse into, "That is not what the bible says." Certainly what is true for dejavu must also be true of you, otherwise it can't be true.

 

I like that.

It's a good question though. Even though Christ died for our sins, God makes the rules, but is not subject to them. So it is hard for me to believe that this was so necessary to save man.

It is also striking that no concrete reason for it is mentioned, which make all answers to that question a mere interpretation. Some might say he died for other sins, other say it was to know what human suffering is like, others say it is predestination, others say that the Jews believed he was a heretic.

We will never know the full answer for sure, I think.

 

No valid reason, as you clearly know. Scapegoating / sacrificing is just the sort of crap that primitive uneducated desert-dwellers dream up when they're malnourished, illiterate, and parasite-infested. Because the world over, they were, and they did.

Even if what the bible said had any truth about it, it would only show that this god fellow deliberately made us defective- so that he can burn us in hell forever when we (by his design) fail. You really can't get any more evil than that. You just... can't. It's not possible.

The reason I personally don't believe in any of this godmonster, aside from all the obvious reasons, is that I don't think any thinking entity can even exist and be that fucking cruel. I feel insulted when someone suggests anyone worship such a wicked monster (if he existed). That's my opinion. I do tend to like religious music, though (reggae and gospel especially). But religion is just... bad. Regardless of the bill of rights in my own country, morally, in the age of nukes, IMO we have no right to believe in these myths that now threaten our species's very existence. That's my opinion.

 

OWB:

Fear not, anything anyone learns from me shall be from me. : D

lol I tried to teach you the difference between except and accept but you did not listen! But no matter! If only it were a matter of listening that had you fail to comprehend that death does not beget life! Even then, there is hope!

Sheer boredom you mean.

I'm only perturbed by my own use of them, even though with me they only mean good cheer! : D

I'd love to hear from anyone who thinks I should relieve myself of them!
Anyone with a deeper ( but not a heavier ) seriousness than my own! lol

 

Hey dope, I have plenty of opinions and express them quite often but in this case I just quoted the Scriptures, without making comments on them, so you could address what the Bible actually says and not accuse me of distortion. But you went ahead and accused me of distortion anyway and then when I pointed out that all I did was quote Scripture, now you are jumping on me for not giving an opinion.
Instead of trying to blame me for the Scriptures not supporting your pagan beliefs, why don’t you address the actual Scriptures that were quoted?

No one is asking you to give your devotion to a book, even if it is God’s word. What makes you in violation of God’s will is not bringing your beliefs in to harmony with what God’s word says they should be.

How do premises that are “not a variance with God”, not allow you to see things as they are?

Never said I wasn’t but that doesn’t mean that I’m not a sinner or prevent me from sinning, free will and all that.

Now my premises that are “not a variance with God” are false premises, please make up your mind.

I have never said the Bible is worthy of “devotion” but it is worthy of study and understanding.

Yes it is the personal belief of Jesus Christ; And commencing at Moses and all the Prophets he interpreted to them things pertaining to himself in all the Scriptures. (Luke 24:27)

Really? Then what was Jesus talking about in the above quoted Scripture?

No they are not. Is God’s house divided against itself? No, it is only your misunderstanding that makes you think that God’s truths disagree with themselves.

Yes, Jesus nailed the old law covenant to the stake and established a new covenant. I never said he didn’t but the new covenant does not mean that in the past God taught his people incorrectly or lied to them and Jesus now is telling the truth.

Persecute your spirit? If it was the Holy Spirit, as you say it is, then where is the problem? The Holy Spirit can take care of itself, too bad your spirit buddy can’t defend himself.

You are the one calling the Christ’s teachings minor, not me. Turning the other cheek has to do with not taking insults personally and has been very beneficial in my discussions with you. As for eye for an eye, it is why Jesus had to sacrifice his life for us.

Yes, that is what I asked.

Yes you did. You left out the fact that the Scripture is talking about them being more noble minded and not just being noble.
Not a saying of Christ? Perhaps not but as I’ve pointed out, it is a saying of God.

What? You want us to “take your word for it” because you believe your spirit buddy is the Holy Spirit and yet you want us to “not take the word of the Bible writers”, who were inspired of Holy Spirit”? Make up your mind.

Really? Are you really saying that nothing can be part of the Bible unless it is already part of the Bible?

What? Haven’t you even read the book of Acts? It’s about the acts of “true Christians” the death of Jesus onward, so what in the world are you talking about?

Basically an idol is anything that diverts your worship from God.
Now the question you bring up is; does the Bible divert my worship from God?
Well, actually you make the Bible more an idol than I do. You take a few Scriptures and use them to fend off anything that might actually lead you to God and the truth.
At least I know God well enough to call him by his personal name, Jehovah but then the Bible only uses the name some 6000 times, it’s easy to see how you might have missed it.

 

It sounds like it too.

Whoop Dee Doo, you found another typo, give him a gold star.

Really? Unless a grain of wheat falls into the ground and dies, it remains just one grain; but if it dies, it then bears much fruit.

Whoop Dee Doo, you found another typo, give him another gold star.

If you were really perturbed by your use of them you wouldn't use them but then you can't even be honest about what they mean.

Personally I don't care whether you use them or not.

Just pointing out that is is a bit hypocritical to point to another person's use of them when you use them so freely yourself.

 

Do you mean my post not so long ago where I commented on the rolling of your eyes?! : D

Yes, really.

lol Now I'm perturbed! What do you think I mean by them OWB?! : D

Back to the seriousness of your mistake though, of thinking that the murder of Jesus has paid your fare to heaven. With the bible as your ticket stub, your entry is not guaranteed, but definitely in question!

: D ( Smiley here translates as meaning that whilst everything I write is damning of your disgusting torture religion, I still hold out hope for you personally, in transformation. )

 

I understand that you are confused.

I have one life and it is open to all. I do not reserve myself for one forsaking another. I have always encouraged you to speak for your self and quit the claim of "the bible says", saying repeatedly that the bible does not speak. You think it a ridiculous statement to say the bible does not speak but I see that the inability to make this distinction is paramount to insanity. The inability to distinguish between what is real and what is imagined.

You take what is said in whole and hack it to pieces by claiming "special circumstance". That a thing applies in one instance and not in another. I know that the bible does not speak, therefore I also know that everything you say is an interpretation. There is no confusion in my mind on this issue. I address you from different angles on this issue that you might see at some point that your claim that you relate, only what the bible says, is false in all respects, most pointedly by definition. That in fact you relate what you have been taught about, what the bible says. Taught through association, taught through experience. It is true of me also that I am taught interpretation, through association, through experience.

I don't know what your associations are. You proclaim no affinity other than an affection for your mother and what you believe to be the name of god, and what you believe to be the self interpreting word of god. There is also the belief in ritual sacrifice. This combination has a peculiar bent that in no wise issues from christ teaching but rather some jewish traditional hieroglyph. Where does your attachment to bastardized jewish tradition come from?

I have addressed the scripture you quote many times. I have said repeatedly that pauls statements are not christ teaching but symbolism that is important to paul's understanding and acceptance, as a zealous jew, of jesus as christ. I am not the only one in this thread who has made this very same point. I appreciate that you believe that no such personal interest could find it's way into the bible but my interpretation in no way is in contradiction to christ teaching. What paul says is one thing and what jesus said is another. They are not consistent in total with each other and they are not even related in some instances.

This is the statement wherein you proclaim that you are the sole arbitrator of the meaning of the words in the bible. You do not realize you are doing this because you believe your interpretation is outside of you or somehow, not yours, that the bible had, "interpreted itself".

I cant quite sort out your use of negatives in this question. I will answer by saying god's verdict of man is the one I trust, not mans verdict on his own condition. God created man in his own likeness and image and saw that it was good, very good. There is no alternative truth to this. We certainly sin when we see each other sinful in the light of this truth. To sin is to miss the sign of god. Is the sign of god sin?

This is where forgiveness figures large in restoring your sight.

Remember, we hid, we saw that we were naked and were ashamed, but god did not pronounce us naked, he asked, who told you you were naked?

God did not pronounce you sinful, period.

 

You can't comprehend an omnipotent beings intentions - it's folly and arrogant to try. You can apply reason and logic to this world. You cannot apply reason and logic to a world that you don't know. You can accept that you don't know and don't need to know the motivations of God - that's called faith.

 

To waterbrother in regards to luke.
26 Did not the Messiah have to suffer these things and then enter his glory?” 27 And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself.

Note 26, and then enter his glory. Death, suffering, means nothing, life is everything.

We have spoken about prophecy before and how things are done, "to fulfill prophecy".

I would ask, what jesus taught you concerning what was said in all the scriptures concerning himself? I can assume it is something different from what I am taught.

 

Oh, I can guarantee it, I'm taught by the Holy Spirit and you are taught by your spirit buddy.

 

For one thing, I'm not going to heaven, very few are, most of mankind is going to live forever right here on Earth. Second the bible is not a "ticket stub", what ever you mean by that. Also no one is guaranteed anything, it is he that endures to the end that shall be saved.

Then to me, it just means you have absolutely no idea what I believe.

 

Then that means you understand nothing.

 

Round and round you go just like a dog chasing its own tail.

You talk only of christ's teachings but ignore the total of God's teachings.

You say things like "What paul says is one thing and what jesus said is another. They are not consistent in total with each other and they are not even related in some instances.", which, in of itself shows that what you believe is wrong.

The simple fact is that the entire Bible is consistent and if your beliefs lead you to think otherwise then your beliefs are incorrect and should be brought into harmony with what the Bible says.