Why did God need to sacrifice Jesus to forgive sin?

Knowledge is not the antithesis of faith. Belief is a symbol chosen to represent an unknown variable. Faith can manifest on the strength of familiarity, knowledge, in the form of trust.

 

What are you talking about? Justice is not a person that can provide a ransom.

So?

It is written so that those who read it, those who live on the Earth, will understand it from their point of view.

Are you really so ignorant that you don't realize that an author can write from any point of view he wants?

 

Yes, that's probably a good reason you're not finding it.

Yes, I think you might be getting it.

No, Satan is not now nor has he ever been necessary.

 

It doesn't have to rain salt water.
If the whole world is inundated there is nothing to separate salt from fresh. Just as it rains fresh water now into the oceans.

 

It is your choice then to honor him equally with god with your faith.

 

OWB:

I didn't say I wasn't finding it, only that I've always found it poetic. One needn't be looking for a thing to find it.

So then how can an eye for an eye be "true" justice if it is not the one lost?

So is satan the ruler of this world or isn't he? Has god given up this world, and his position as "co-creator", for the next world whatever that is? One for one as you say?

 

Actually you said; "In my travels I've discovered that "true" justice is only ever poetic." and that phrasing seems to indicate that you haven't actually been finding true justice. Perhaps that is not what you meant but that is the way it come across.

Because true justice is asking for a one to one correspondence.

As per the example of a gold ring it would be nice if the same ring was returned but if the original was melted down and made part of a gold bar thus lost. What then would be just? Since the original ring can not be returned does that mean justice can not be served?

Yes, Satan is the ruler of the world that he has created.

God does not want or need the world that Satan has made, that world is collapsing under the weight of it's own insanity and will soon be done away with.

 

OWB:

Again, I don't see how "true" justice would need to ask for anything.

You tell me, you're the one who agreed with me that one for one is only a balancing where the one in question is the very same.

But God isn't?!

How soon? And what then?

 

I did not mean it to be that he actually limits his power, but that in practicality he does not use his ability. It is limited in practice.

What I was talking about is even more hypothetical than that. God knows what we will freely choose in a situation that has never happened nor will ever happen. I think Jeremiah 23: 21-22 supports this "middle knowledge" of counterfactuals.

 

Why not? I've explained it to you several times now. This system is out of balance and ""true" justice" calls for it to be balanced again.

A perfect life for a perfect life is the same thing, thus a balancing and that is what I agreed to.

Why would God want anything to do with ruling Satan's world? What has been made crooked can not be made straight.

Well Satan's world was on the brink of world wide economic collapse just a few years ago and it it hasn't been fixed, so it won't take much for it to continue its collapse. Then we won't have to deal with Satan's system of things continually grinding us down.

 

Okay, if that is the way you want to think of it.

God here is speaking to those who were being disobedient. These ones were doing and saying things that were leading the people astray and God was merely pointing out that if instead they had worked with God instead of against him, things would have worked out better. It was not a matter of foreknowledge but merely a matter of wisdom.

 

I have always understood that Jesus died as the ULTIMATE sacrifice for sin , thus ending the silly laws of blood sacrifice......

 

But you go on to say:

Why not? What happened to this "true" justice, that is "calling" all to balance, to itself?

I don't know, maybe he has some home repair tips to offer or something.

So then it will be gods world again? Or ours?

No, that's a replacement. An approximation of what was, and not the thing itself. Everything is for itself, and so all else, ie. its continuation. Like I said before, 'one for one' is only a balancing if that one happens to be the very same.

Storch mentioned that justice, as you paint it, is called revenge. I'm not saying it is. For all I know you're just a horrible painter. I'll try and help. I think it could be because your 'one for one' involves a taking away, a loss, a leaving behind, as opposed to a return, a favour, a bestowal . What I'm trying to say, is your blacks and whites are grey!

 

I think it is symbolic but we still don't get it.

 

Are you really so ignorant that you don't realize an author can make up any random shit he wants?


Also.. who's taking what point of view in this discussion? I've gathered OWB is the devout Christian and Dejavu's an atheist, and this topics too long winded and back and forth to actually be entertaining enough to read through from the start to get a handle on things

 

OWB,

Now you're evading the question of the consequences of final death. I said that being unaware of what you're missing is not a consequence. I then asked you to explain the nature of that consequence. You failed to do that.

You said that God did not ask anyone for pain and torture, yet that was exactly what the ransom was. And since you said that God is the one who provided it, you are contradicting yourself.

And what do you mean you didn't say that God didn't get angry? In post #358 you did indeed say that God didn't get angry about it.

As far as coercion, if I want to have sex with my neighbor, and God says not until I sign a binding contract which binds me to that woman for the rest of my life, that is coercion. So, here we have me exercising my free will in a way that doesn't hurt me, and yet is breaking God's law; it is not the same as smashing my hand with a hammer.

You said that if what is "just" changes from day to day, how could anything ever be considered just? Well then, the next time someone breaks the law of God, I guess I will be justified in meting out justice according to what the Bible prescribes. Do you really want that?

Concerning the biblical account of creation contained in Genesis, you are saying that it is not the inspired word of god since by your own admission it was written according to the perspective of some person who decided/projected how it must have been. So is it the word of God or not? Are you really so ignorant that you don't realize that an author can write from any point of view he wants, but that that will make his account his own, and not God's?

Of course you understand that in a world-wide flood, salty seas will mix with the bodies of freshwater, thereby subjecting freshwater fish to salty sea water. Why pretend to not understand what I meant?

If death is a consequence of Adam's sin, why is it that God twisted the "one for one" system of justice by condemning every future human for what one man did? Again you are contradicting yourself.

Also, if the person/God responsible for the serpent in the garden was Satan, God's enemy, what ever happened to the "one for one" system of justice. In other words, why did everyone have to pay for Satan's error? God blames everyone but himself. And you're ok with that?

You said that when God let his children inhabit the garden, there was no serpent. That's fine. But you seem to be standing up for a God who failed to keep his children safe by being unaware of the presence of this serpent. Was God surprised? Tell me, who is responsible for the safety of the children? The children? You expect more from the children than you do from the parent. You are being unreasonable.

 

Two different things my friend.

Yes, justice does involve balance but with the building of a crooked house we not talking about justice, we are talking about whether it is worth the time and effort to correct its crookedness or whether it is better to tear it down and just start over. In the case of what Satan has built it can not be made straight.

Like I said what has been made crooked can not be made straight.

Satan's system is a house of cards built on a foundation of hate and greed, so why bother?

The world or system of things, we were talking is the one Satan has build, God has never stopped being the "owner" of the universe.

That's what you keep saying but it does not make it so.

If someone steals $500 from you, you want the money back. It doesn't matter if he pays you in one dollar bills or one hundred dollar bills, justice calls for the money to be returned and it would the height of foolishness to refuse repayment just because the repayment was not the same exact bills that were stolen.

Again call it what you will but if something is stolen, should it not be replaced or compensated for? If you want to call that "revenge" go ahead but I would call it only fair and just.

One thing that you seem to fail to realize is the cost of what was stolen. It has cost mankind thousands of years pain, suffering, death and sorrow. What you argue for is that these things continue forever. I, on the other hand see a way all that can be stopped. Call it what you will but I believe that I will take that path, especially seeing as the price has already been paid and that there is nothing I can do to turn back time and change that fact even if I wanted.

 

So god is of limited power and did not create the world we live in. Why is it in your version of free will we are free to defile but not free to be redeemed?

Are you being ground down? Where is god in your scenario of satan is the most important actor in this world? You are a greater defender of satan than a proponent of god. Without satan, your whole belief system comes tumbling down, and oh, maybe you might just have to actually forgive something that your world might be redeemed.

 

In what way have shown ignorance to that fact? I'm well aware of the "random shit" you author.

The topic is "Why did God need to sacrifice Jesus to forgive sin?", if you have something to say on the subject, just say it. There is really no need to know what everyone's viewpoint is for you to comment on the subject.

 

Hello, I thought I would address this a little..

Adam was a perfect man and also had freewill to choose what he wanted. When Adam and Eve were decieved by the serpent (Satan)..they directly went against what God had told them not to do..he told them that they would die if they ate from that tree, Satan said that they "positively would not die", thus calling God a liar..
With that being said, there were other witnesses of this account..the angels, 100's of millions of them..Satan wanted worship from humans and said that God held back good things from them..so God has allowed Satan to show what he has got as a leader..
In the meantime, he sent Jesus to earth to fulfill prophecies, preach about the incoming Kingdom and make a final fleshly sacrifice for all of mankind..everything up until then was all Mosaic law and was just a tudor till Jesus came..it has all got to be played out. It is about vidication, so ALL will know.