Why did God need to sacrifice Jesus to forgive sin?

Wendigo always try to tell where we can and can not go. But I do not dance with Wendigo and my feet will walk in the direction where they face. To be frankness. I am on voyage to India and a church has given me job and bed for litttle time. The peoples is much poli but explain not nothing and I have much curiosity.

 

To be honest, you sound pretty full of "Windigo" yourself, claiming this and that "heritage". Next thing, you'll be claiming to be part Sioux, part Apache, and part Havasupai as well,,

 

If not hellfire what is the penalty you try to coerce me with? Your lesson of or brand of fear is no more "true" christian than any other.

Most of mankind will live forever on earth as god originally intended?

Man lives on earth as man intends. That man lives is gods intent. Your will to be alive and his will that you are alive are the same will. It has always been this way and always will. Men have not lost gods favor nor altered his intent.

Men have fallen out of favor with each other and willingly contest each other to upset intent. Gods plan for our salvation goes through ourselves to our brother. It is in him , and through him we reconcile with god because he is in all of us. It couldn't be more simple. To love is the only price to be paid, or that was paid for our salvation and it is only without love that we are lost to goodness. Forgive those who trespass, love your enemies, pray for those who persecute you. Learn to be unremittingly merciful and any hint of personal sacrifice will be avoided.

God did not sacrifice his son. God's son did not sacrifice himself.

 

no

 

First, I did not "say" it, at most I agreed with the dope when he mentioned the Scriptures indicated that Jesus was to be "murdered".

Why is it that you conveniently forget that when you asked me if Jesus could have died of natural causes and I said it would have been okay with me. Yet you keep pressing on with this accusation, as if I was the one who determined how Jesus was to die.

 

Please show me where "Wendigo" told you where to go or not go? All I did was ask a question?

As far as I'm concerned, you can dance with anyone you want and go anywhere you want.

If you truly are curious like you say, I would suggest that you leave your seeming prejudices against the "white man" behind and just listen to what is said.

If you had you would have heard, that I am part Blackfoot, that I said you are welcome here and that I was curious about your wanting to enter into this conversation.

 

It is hard for me to understand how far the "god of this system of things" has blinded your mind. After all this time you still have no clue what has been said to you.

There is no "penalty" to coerce anyone with. The worst that can happen to you is that you will miss out on everlasting life and that is your choice and not one God or anyone else makes for you.

 

Yes.

That is true.

That is true.

Man will to be alive and God's will for man to be alive are not necessarily the same thing.

Men have lost favor in God's eyes thus the need for mankind to be reconciled to God. As for mankind altering God's intent no they can not but that does not mean that for a short while they can't do other than what God intended. God's purposes will be fulfilled, regardless of what individuals have decided to do.

And forget about God and his Son Jesus because their actions have nothing to do with our salvation?

 

As opposed to everything the Bible, God's word, says on the subject?

(1 Corinthians 5:7) For, indeed, Christ our passover has been sacrificed
(Ephesians 5:2) and go on walking in love, just as the Christ also loved YOU and delivered himself up for YOU as an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling odor.
(Hebrews 2:17) Consequently he was obliged to become like his “brothers” in all respects, that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, in order to offer propitiatory sacrifice for the sins of the people.
(Hebrews 7:27) He does not need daily, as those high priests do, to offer up sacrifices, first for his own sins and then for those of the people: (for this he did once for all time when he offered himself up
(Hebrews 9:23-26) Therefore it was necessary that the typical representations of the things in the heavens should be cleansed by these means, but the heavenly things themselves with sacrifices that are better than such sacrifices. For Christ entered, not into a holy place made with hands, which is a copy of the reality, but into heaven itself, now to appear before the person of God for us. Neither is it in order that he should offer himself often, as indeed the high priest enters into the holy place from year to year with blood not his own. Otherwise, he would have to suffer often from the founding of the world. But now he has manifested himself once for all time at the conclusion of the systems of things to put sin away through the sacrifice of himself.
(Hebrews 10:5-10) Hence when he comes into the world he says: “‘Sacrifice and offering you did not want, but you prepared a body for me. You did not approve of whole burnt offerings and sin [offering].’ Then I said, ‘Look! I am come (in the roll of the book it is written about me) to do your will, O God.’” After first saying: “You did not want nor did you approve of sacrifices and offerings and whole burnt offerings and sin [offering]”—[sacrifices] that are offered according to the Law— then he actually says: “Look! I am come to do your will.” He does away with what is first that he may establish what is second. By the said “will” we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all time.
(Hebrews 10:12) But this [man] offered one sacrifice for sins perpetually and sat down at the right hand of God,
(1 John 2:1-2) And yet, if anyone does commit a sin, we have a helper with the Father, Jesus Christ, a righteous one. And he is a propitiatory sacrifice for our sins, yet not for ours only but also for the whole world’s.
(1 John 4:10) The love is in this respect, not that we have loved God, but that he loved us and sent forth his Son as a propitiatory sacrifice for our sins.

 

Actually you quote only what paul says and omit some of all that is written.

Paul

Paul

Paul

Paul

Paul

Paul

Paul

Paul

Paul

Jesus of nazareth, "I desire mercy not sacrifice." As I described to you, paul was a zealous jew, it was meaningful to him to make the connection to jewish tradition. Christ teaching however is non-traditional, rather, it is authentic. Tradition is to "trade away". We had traded away authentic relationship to god for representative ritual.

 

How so?

Who says?

Your premise is self cancelling. If we cannot alter gods intent we cannot alter gods intent for us in a short time. Altering intent is altering intent. This misconception of yours is reflective of apologetics, where your truth must always make exceptions or produce inconsistencies to be true.

No, the actions are different than you claim.

 

If you missed out on eternal life what was the reason for it? It is a threat to the living that they conceive of themselves without life. Do you want to die?

 

Why only most if gods intent is fulfilled regardless of what we may do?

 

But isn't this then tantamount to saying God killed Jesus ( since you give out that the scriptures are Gods word? )

I ask after your belief only to try and understand it.

I only understand with love.

 

If you don't believe in the holy spirit moving Paul to write these things then maybe you'll believe Jesus.

John 15:13, John 10:11, Mark 14:12-16;22-25, Luke 22:19

If you don't believe in the authority given to the apostles by Jesus than have a look at these verses.

Mark 16:17-18
These signs will accompany those who have believed: in My name they will cast out demons, they will speak with new tongues; they will pick up serpents, and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.

Acts 5:12-16
Acts 28:3-6

 

I see what is written. Tell me where it written that jesus said he sacrificed himself or that god sacrificed him. Blood poured out, life given, these are investments, not sacrifices. It is written that jesus said no one takes his life from him, that he lays it down and takes it up of his own accord. To sacrifice is to give up something you would prefer to keep.

And these things you do because you have believed? It is not that I do not believe. It is that I am taught a different interpretation. You believe as you have been taught and so I believe as I have been taught.

The holy spirit uses symbolism that is unmistakable to the listener or seeker. That symbolism may not be meaningful to one where it would be meaningful to another.

I desire mercy, not sacrifice. Do you know what this means? Have you learned what this means?

 

I probably know as much of the Blackfoots as you know of Mohawks and Inuits. Our languages is certains to not be at all similaires. I am but still certain that Blackfoots as most amerindiens of North America speak of Wendigo. Wendigo is easy to see when you know where to look. His personality never change and his stratagie is always similaires. He always say he holds all truth and he never not answer questions directs

But in conversations he acts like this.

* Are you agreeing with me = You are like Wendigo so become friends
* Is there possiblity to convience you to agree = Keep talking soon Wendigo have new friend
* If you agree not with me will you be silent = Wendigo will pretend to be your friend to watch you
* You agree not with me and you not be silent = Challenge you for why you here
* You have logic to your arguments and will not go = Windigo will ridicule you.
* You have strong character and logic = Wendigo pretend to be victim to get support emotional

I am at this time living in a church in Europe. I eat breakfest with Wendigo's friends every day. Perhaps so maybe to answer question why I type in this section.

It is not prejudice. It is observation.
On a planet where 80% of the people are not white men. It is not hard to see that white man's domination was not won by having gentleness, fairness or caring. I was also told since long time that the word prejudice does not exist in most amerindien languages. Perhaps Wendigo invented it so he could say he was a victim of it.

*** Now please answer for me my only question asked. How do you know your faith is the only truth ? ***

 

If you did then you would clearly see that Jesus compares himself to a sacrificial lamb.

I believe what is written and taught to me by God. You believe as you were taught by something other than the holy spirit. Your testimony demonstrates this. 2 Cor. 11:3-4

Perspectives do play a role but all these perspectives agree with the sacrifice.

Yes, do you?

btw, maybe it would be a good idea for you to quote the first line, "I desire mercy, not sacrifice" otherwise it may sound like you were the one who coined it.

 

Frankly I do and you have not shown me where he compares himself to a sacrificial lamb.

It is written that jesus says that he lays his life down for the sheep. He says he lays it down that he may take it up again. The purpose of giving his life is not to sacrifice himself but to come into glory, no longer his presence confined to the physical body.

What you are so very certain you see in the bible is something that men taught you. You have embraced a traditional interpretation, that by no means is the only legitimate one.

If your interpretation stirs you emotionally to devotion it is sufficient for you. If your interpretation causes you to deny the spirit of god in another, it is not sufficient for god.

My testimony is consistent with christ teaching. The book and chapter you quote is paul teaching proclaiming the verity of paul teaching.

What sacrifice?

Yes. Jesus was speaking the words of his father. Jesus demonstrated gods mercy flowing through him to all men. Jesus did not say of gods mercy that it requires the sacrifice of his son for your sins. To sacrifice the innocent for the sake of the guilty is a contradiction in terms.

Jesus is saying exactly the opposite of what the traditional belief was. No more sacrifices . What his father requires is mercy. What his father requires is the whole investment of the self, not the ritual sacrifice of a proxy. Jesus is not a scape goat, but the lamb of god, the symbol of innocence. Jesus is not even the same species as a goat.

As often as you do this, remember me. Love god with all your might and your brother as yourself. Forgive and you are forgiven. Do not forgive and you are not forgiven, regardless how many jesus are crucified. Jesus was not guilty and on the cross he said nor are you. Father forgive them, they know not what they do. They do not know the difference between right and wrong. The son in that moment fulfilled the fathers will of mercy. God was not being merciful to you by satisfying his blood lust by using his son instead of you.

Now, what have you learned that it means?

By the way, maybe you shouldn't be so concerned with brushing the lint off of my soul. Is there any doubt in your mind where the quote comes from?

 

I quoted scripture that says this but here it is:

"On the first day of the Festival of Unleavened Bread, when it was customary to sacrifice the Passover lamb, Jesus’ disciples asked him, “Where do you want us to go and make preparations for you to eat the Passover?”" Mark 14:12-16 (NIV)

Aside from the above scripture, isn't that good reason to believe that Jesus' laying down his life a sacrifice?

It is to sacrifice himself as described in quoted scripture above and it is to save us from sin and to replace Adam. Romans 5:12-21

What men taught me was many things. One of which is that Jesus never existed. Another that you teach me is unbiblical and goes against what Jesus himself said.

Before you were implying that since Paul and not Jesus said so that what Paul said, since he was simply, according to you, a devote Jew, that what he says has no weight.

I was pointing out what Jesus clearly said, so you either decide to accept what Jesus says or you don't. Up to you. If what Jesus says is more important than Paul to you then you should probably listen to Jesus when he says to listen to Paul, especially when the sacrifice is discussed.

Otherwise I don't understand why you would say only Paul spoke of the sacrifice and not Jesus (which isn't true).

Why exactly should I see it your way when Jesus says it another way?

Everyone can make their own choice but there is only one true interpretation.

This is true.

The one Jesus mentions.

Sacrifice without the right spirit is meaningless. Isaiah says as much, but sacrifice in the right spirit can save many. John 3:16

Read Isaiah and see for yourself that God only accepted sacrifices in the right spirit and ignored them when his people were doing wrong.

You may not be too interested in Isaiah but it's there if you want to see it. Perhaps that may aid you in your understanding of what Jesus had meant by mercy not sacrifice.

There is no blood lust. Saying so testifies to a different Jesus and God you preach.

There is nothing evil about one giving their lives for their friends, but the exact opposite of, so much love that he does it to save anyone who wants it.

I hope that for everyone, and I hope it for me often.

Jehovah, if you mean what's said about Jesus by Paul.