Why are we so imperfect? -- Our need for religion.

Discussion in 'Existentialism' started by KttheFreakXD, Mar 16, 2012.

  1. Driftwood Gypsy

    Driftwood Gypsy Lifetime Supporter Lifetime Supporter

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    Religion came about when people were seeking explanations for life. People believe in religion because it gives their life some kind of meaning. The powers hat be use religion to control people.
     
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  2. Monkey Boy

    Monkey Boy Senior Member

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    People who see themselves as weak and sinners are more motivated to let go of ego. Throwing off the concept of what they think they are in exchange for what they really are. Status becomes meaningless.
     
  3. Okiefreak

    Okiefreak Senior Member

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    I think that's at least one important reason why religions exist. Another is to fulfill society's needs, and the needs of its political leaders and clergy. But there's an additional possibility: that they exist because of intuitively perceived objective realities. Science has yet to provide definitive explanations for the creation and integrated complexity of the universe, the origin of life, the nature of consciousness, the nature of dark matter that holds the universe together, how fast the universe is expanding, the existence of quantum laws, etc. Scientifically fashionable explanations like M-theory and quantum vacuum fluctuations at the cosmic level are no more empirically supported than theory of a Creator and/or Grand Designer. It does seem unlikely that such an Entity would be anything unlike the anthropomorphic beings that were worshiped in the various religions that you studied. But instead of assuming that since there are so many diverse religions they must all be wrong, could it be that all those people throughout the ages who sensed that there was Something Big Out There (besides spacetime0 were onto something?
     
  4. Deidre

    Deidre Follow thy heart

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    Who defines perfection? If we know that answer, then we can probably strive towards it, but if we don't, then maybe there is no such thing?
     
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  5. Irminsul

    Irminsul Valkyrie

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    I think we do. Ask 10 people to describe a perfect scenario will yield 10 different scenarios. Perfection is all in the eyes and mind of the beholder.

    The problem is probably greed at that point. Are you greedy, living by virtue sins while you strive to reach that perfection? I think so.

    I don't really believe in any of that nonsense though, all those 7 sins are buried in my personality traits.
     
  6. storch

    storch banned

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    If you laugh and cry, succeed and fail, and rejoice and grieve, then you're perfectly human.
     
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  7. themnax

    themnax Senior Member

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    perfection is a mythical beast. you can believe anything you want because nothing has to be known in order to exist. no belief changes the core of reality.
    humans are not perfect for the simple real reason that nothing is or needs to be. some highly complex systems require all of their components to be very nearly perfect to function at all.
    the existence of the universe has absolutely nothing to do with the human species. so i guess that's why i've sometimes been called existentialist. but really how is that not obvious, other then being distracted from realizing this by being told by others what to pretend. because the unknown is unknown, all beliefs are possible, but no belief is capable of removing the existence of imperfection, which is no more endemic to humans then to anything else and equally no less so. (but we are capable of screwing up our surroundings so badly that they are no longer capable of sustaining our own existence. we are also able potentially to avoid doing so. time for popcorn.)

    i have never understood why the human ego feels the need to have the rest of the universe care that its species even exists. that it has no need to do so, does not in any way prevent us from creating beauty and enjoying what surrounds us and what we add to it to be surrounded by.
     
    Last edited: May 2, 2020
  8. themnax

    themnax Senior Member

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    how much more meaning, then to create and enjoy beauty, does life really need? and why would it?
    religions were created out of despiration to encourage the desire to not bully others, to oppose, look for, and hopefully find, ways to end and prevent the dominance of aggressiveness in sapient society. granted this is too often stood on its head. only proving that religious beliefs, are likewise also lacking in perfections just like anything else.
    but they do have their values, and not just the negatives to manipulate people.
    some people find peace in them, some even behave themselves better because of them,
    even if their infallability and prefection are just as mythical.
    also there is nothing to stop god-like beings from existing, without having anything to do with any form of belief.
    they just, owe nothing to what we tell each other.
     
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  9. Dax

    Dax Members

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    Every single person on the planet who believes that a god created the universe does so because they were taught to do so by their parents/teachers/brother/sister/et al. Religion is taught. No toddler ever uttered "god or jesus" as his first word.
     
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  10. guerillabedlam

    guerillabedlam _|=|-|=|_

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    Science is taught as well. I doubt any toddler ever uttered "E=mc2" as his first word.

    I suppose one of the odd distinctions with the main religions is delving into texts from past centuries/millenia and hoisting it up as prophetic truth for some undisclosed future time.

    However there have been philosophers and others who have attempted to reason the existence of God, examples like First Cause or Unmoved Mover or fine-tuned universe or how does something arise from nothing at least warrant consideration.

    I think The Theory of Relativity needs to be reconciled with Quantum Mechanics to produce a Theory of Everything, or perhaps some new physics developed for their to be a dramatic shift in people's stance towards religion.
     
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  11. themnax

    themnax Senior Member

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    the unknown neither prevents nor requires.
    science looks at the unknown and asks the next question.
    religion denies the capacity for the unknown to exist. not all religions do this. but what a lot of people seem to think of as religion does.
    which is really a strange thing for it to do that.
    authority is ego, and we may all have that, but the universe doesn't care that we do, and it doesn't need to.

    the human ego wants to think an infant's first word is "mama", but its real first word is "wow".
     
  12. Tishomingo

    Tishomingo Members

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    Since this thread was started in the Existentialism sub-forum, it might be appropriate to consider religion the way I do, from an existentialist perspective. We're so imperfect cuz we're so human. Whether we come at it from a religious or scientific perspective, our physical and intellectual limitations seem obvious.

    I start from a position of radical uncertainty: nothing is certain, not even that. For all I know, I might be a brain in a jar in some mad scientist's laboratory, or my experiences could all be a virtual reality simulation like in the movie The Matrix. Professor Nick Bostrom at Oxford actually believes that and is making good money on their faculty. What to do? It's really hard to function without some sense of direction. How can I be sure, in a world that's constantly changing. My solution is to take a chance, to bet on what seems most plausible, and go with it so long as it seems to work for me, always keeping other possibilities in mind and open. I like to make educated bets, based on evidence, reason, experience, book learning, and intuition, as much as possible.

    I came to Christianity as a result of a conversion experience triggered by Genesis 1:26 that happened to enter my mind, causing a chain reaction of cascading thoughts culminating in a commitment to a worldview based on Jesus' core teachings of peace love and understanding. Was it a revelation from On High? A psychotic break? Insight? I tend to favor the latter explanation, but it doesn't matter. I chose to go with it, for reasons that seemed good at the time and still do. It's more congenial to my temperament than conflict, hate and misunderstanding, so I go with it. I think if everybody did, the world would be a happier place and people would live in harmony. But I'm not exclusive about it. I draw on other world religions--Hinduism, Buddhism, Taoism, Islam, etc.-- to inform my Christian faith and regard all of them as valid approaches to truth. Even atheism. Although it isn't a religion, it sheds a critical light on religion, and I follow Saint Justin Martyr in considering conscientious atheists to be honorary Christians . This puts me very much at odds with fundamentalist versions of Christianity that seem predominant in the world. I'm a Progressive Christian and take fellowship with others of similar persuasion. I don't think I have Truth by the tail by any means, and have no faith in or concern about an afterlife, but my religious beliefs provide me with a sense of direction and ethical purpose.

    From my readings in anthropology and the history of world religions, I think religion serves multiple functions for individuals, society, politicians, and clergy. For individuals, it provides a cognitive map of reality, a way of coping with existential anxieties (nothing to be ashamed of), and a learned set of responses to spirit, although in pluralistic societies like ours it can also be (and is right now) a source of division. For the clergy, it's their livelihood. For political leaders, it can be a source of legitimacy. As Gibbon said of the Romans, for the masses all religions were equally valid, for the intellectuals all religions were equally false, and for the politicians, all were equally useful (think Trump thumping his upside down Bible). So as good existentialists, we need to consider whether that's good enough or whether there may be something more to it, and whether or not to take a chance on it. I believe that heaven or hell on earth are real possibilities, and we need to choose between them and act accordingly.

    Well, religion seems to be alive, if not well, but Nietzsche is deader than a door nail, after an unfortunate bout of syphilis and mental illness. Poor superman. Not the way I'd want to go or the guru I'd want to follow, but to each his/her own. What would happen if lots of people accepted his idea of supermen and "undermen", as opposed to Jesus' egalitarianism that he despised? As a matter of fact, lots of people do. It's called the authoritarian personality, and it's fueling the current rise of neo-fascism. As for the Death of God in Europe and the West, is it anyone's impression that these are healthy societies looking forward to a bright future of godlessness? I think our own country may be a few years away from a fascist dictatorship backed by evangelicals who think they're Christians. I hope I'm wrong!
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2021
  13. soulcompromise

    soulcompromise Member HipForums Supporter

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    the human mind is ultimately a fickle and selfish thing...

    It's imagination that sets us apart.

    & when I imagine God what do I think about?

    I think man has endeavored to express the ultimate goal of humankind. Our shared journey... Our ambition... this is by necessity that we were given religion.


    God gave us a path to follow. That is why.
     
  14. themnax

    themnax Senior Member

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    i think our imperfections are often exaggerated to market "religious" perspectives.
    imperfections exist in nature, but those of the human species are no greater then those of anything else, even gods.
    if anything, its that perfection is either so rare, or even possibly a thing that simply does not exist.
    what god gave us or didn't gave us, is one of those things, beliefs like to claim to know, that are a detail, that are not an intrinsic part of experience the existence of unseen things.
    all of it may be, and my personal feelings and experience tells me gods or a god exist, but so many of these kinds of things,
    other then there mere existence, and that doors and windows of opportunity are sometimes opened or closed by them,
    this whole thing that we, or anything else, owe some kind of fealty to an unseen hierarchy,
    i believe that to be the part of it, humans make up themselves, for entirely human reasons,
    whatever god or gods might also exist.

    the hatred of logic for example, is a cultural and at least partially religious perspective, and not a biological imperative of our species in any way.

    all of the evils of this world come from people choosing to be aggressively inconsiderate,
    not from anything mystical.
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2021

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