Why are self-confident women written off as bitches by most men?

yes! this is what i have been trying to express. only you just did it so much better! something does need to happen. and hopefully soon. thank you for all your wonderful insight. it's nice to know there are others out there that can understand what i am trying to say.

much peace and love to you,

jenny

 

can you elaborate on that?

jenny

 

Um, dont we also call strong and fiercely independent men assholes, arrogant, cocky and a host of other lovely adjectives?

Its just a spin that women are called bitches and men admirable. I can just as easily reverse it on you.

Do you honestly think women or blacks would be judged BADLY for saying "I want to be president one day." I think not.

Maybe your defeatist attitude is part of the reason we havent had a female president? Who knows.

You'd think doing the 'impossible' would be a good reason to dream of lofty goals...but maybe our generation doesn't have the will or attention span to try something *hard*?

She was also the first poet to win the pulitzer prise posthumously. Quite an honor. Then again, you can always choose to look at the negative...

 

thanks for your quite original support. i am a big fan of originality. it gets harder to find with each passing year. yes, there are many examples of smart women being judged harshly by men and women both. and that's what worries me.

much peace and love to you,

jenny

 

hmmmmm. a little defensive today, are we? you completely sidestepped my points, and chose to go on the defensive.

1. so plath getting the pulitzer posthumously was quite an "honor"? really? don't you think it would have meant much more to her while she was still alive?

2. little girls and african americans can "dream" of becoming president of this country. but what are the odds of the dream becoming a reality? that is not called being a defeatist. it is reality: sexism and racism are still a huge part of what makes most americans tick. and even if we finally do see a woman (or african american) in the white house in 2008: why has it taken this long? i think that speaks for itself. sorry i touched such a nerve.

jenny

 

i gotta say...... men dont generally have an issue with me,,,,, doesnt matter what ethnicity they are..... some have issues at first simply because it is rare they see women like me in society.... once that inital freak is done,,, its kewl... basically one of the guys,,, can take it n give it back,,,, can suck it up n take it like a man if you will...... women on the other hand get all kinds of bent outta shape around me.... often times simply because i spend more time with their significant other than they do.... women tend to feel very intimidated by me,,,, not that i mean to most of the time.... but i am harsh ,blunt, talk like a sailor... and am built quite stocky and most can feel i would kick the shit outta them in a heart beat.... in return i can say most women in society make me want to vomit.... and its rare that one actually can spark my mind enough to sit through all the drama that generally comes with females...

see,,,, even here i sound harsh,,,, n its not meant to be .... ....... ok ... i am a bitch !...

 

um, where do i begin?


"Men are intimidated by strong women, specifically immature ones, because it makes them question their manhood. It's not a bad thing, men just don't like it."

All men think this?


" We live in a world where everything is of masculine quality"

Really? i thought country's, ships, and cars(to name just a few) were feminine. I guess lady liberty is really a male too? Justice(the greek goddess)? Columbia(our mystical protector)?

"White men don't get discriminated against, sorry, try again."

Really? No white men get discriminated against? Thats a bold statement...

"Jenny's right...why do WE have to choose family or career? Why don't men ever have to make that decision? Because it's a woman's "job" right?"

Say what? Men don't EVER have to make the decision between family and career? I can name quite a few guys i've known who chose to take a lesser paying job so they could stay home with their kid instead of traveling all the time and getting paid more. But no, only women suffer monetarily because of women.

"And you know how society here in the United States who view women who stay home with the kids? Submissive."

Really? Society thinks that? Are you sure "you" dont think that?

"DO you know what they call women who put their kids in childcare and go to work? Uncaring, cold mothers."

Really? Society thinks that too? I think "you" think that. Daycare is so widely used in this country that this comment is borderline silly, if not downright stupid.

"so because i had an an abortion (at 16) so i could remain in h.s., (after my b.f. abandoned me), and go on to college, i am some sorta twisted "bitch"? i don't think so. where's his responsibility? if we are "still" blaming the woman for becoming pregnant now, we have not advanced all that much beyond the 20th century, huh? but it is so much easier to blame the woman? than ask why the man refused to use protection? because it "took away most of his pleasure." so why is the woman the only one responsible? because it's so much easier. period. hello? do most of you dudes really think we women were born without a brain? sorry. but that's how it seems. and it's high time for you to own up to your own responsibilty. instead of just blaming it all on us "slutty" woman. that's way too easy. way, way too easy and convenient."

Umm wow... where do i go with this one? First off, if you let a guy put a penis in you without protection, it is your fault(and yes, HIS) if you got pregnant. And men aren't responsible for pregnancy? Tell that to all the men who get saddled with child support(as they should be). But yeah, as you can see, this whole thing is one giant stereotype...

" Stereotyping?

LOL, that's what women live with on a daily basis."

Do only women live with stereotyping on a daily basis?

"Women are thought of as submissive and weak"

Really?


that's just the stereotypes i noticed on a quick glance...and not even the silly statements.

Are you really upset because some crackpot professor(as most are) said some female poets were neurotic and crazy? Would you call a woman who commits suicide mentally stable? Do you ignore that famous male artists are also called crazy too? Poe, van gogh etc. Just because they called a woman crazy doesn't make them anti female....

 

MOST, YES!

LOL Well the ships and cars have to do with possession And as far as lady liberty...women are thought to be the keepers of the home and to look over people. Men don't do that...therefore, it's only logical it would be LADY LIBERTY who looks over Ellis Island, yeah?

Uh, when HAVE they? Every president has been a white man, there are WAYYYYYYY more white men than any other race or sex in colleges...You don't hear about a glass ceiling for men do you?

Men VERY RARELY have to CHOOSE between family and career...women do...we have to think about "Well, do I throw my kid in daycare so I can have a job, or do I stay home with my kids so no one else is raising them?" There are VERY FEW men who have to EVER consider that.

Hell no, I don't think that. Women who have children and stay home with them...that's a FULL TIME JOB! And a helluva lot of work...I know a lot of males that don't think it's that much work. And even more who think these women who are "just" housewives are just living off them.

Hell no, I don't think that either. That's a mother's CHOICE. Sometimes one she has to make because the deadbeat dad ran out on her. You don't hear about very many women running out on their husbands...leaving the kids with him, do you? Ask some hardcore conservative housewife about daycare and she'll look at you like you're insane....and that's just a woman...think about a conservative man...

Yup, really...read some literature man..educate yourself on what's really going on with gender issues in the United States.

These aren't stereotypes I've made up. People have done studies, surveys...it's been documented over time. I don't make this shit up. I've read it over and over again in journals and articles. This is how WOMEN ARE VIEWED in the past and present. If they weren't the truth, then why is there a feminist movement???

Men aren't going to straight out admit that women are thought to be the weaker sex...although I've sure read it on this website about a zillion times.

It's kind of like a million dollars. Just because YOU can't see it, doesn't mean it's not there.

 

i can see how you might come across as intimidating to some. lol. but it's your right to act as you choose. instead of just believing some silly little article about "how to be more attractive to your man" found in one of those popular women's magazines. have you noticed how much emphasis is placed on what a woman looks like? instead of her actual achievements? now that does make me feel quite ill. that's why i have so much respect for janis joplin. she was not a conventional beauty. and had to take a lot of grief because of it. it was only because she was so fiercely independent and original, that she became a success in the male dominated music industry. remember, she got her start almost 40 years ago! oh, and they just gave her a "posthumous" grammy award one or two years ago? such an honor, huh? lol. wouldn't it be nice if brilliant women got the recognition they deserve while they are still alive? you know, like the way it happens with most men?

much peace and love to you,

jenny

 

To answer the question posed: It's for the same reason that self confident men are written off as assholes.

 

I disagree...I don't think that women think confidence makes men asses...

In fact, assholes are usually NOT confident...and that's where the problem lies.

 

Um, only one is awarded per year...surely not everyone deserving can always win? Heck, jimmy carter won the nobel peace prize what...20 odd years after the fact...

Um, there have been 43 presidents in American history. How many hundreds of millions(or billons now) of Americans have there been? The odds for anyone becoming president are so astronomically small. There is no legal bounds stopping women or blacks from becoming president. But yes, i'm sure racism/sexism/ageism/religionism(whatever ya would call it)/imageism/every other ism do play a part. How big? Impossible to tell. Money is the real factor here, IMO.

 

huh? so now it's all about money? seems to me that abraham lincoln had a very impoverished childhood. but that didn't stop him from making it into the white house. but he was a man, huh? and a white one. which only proves my point. so you acknowledge there is sexism and racism in one sweeping statement (when i asked you to support your statements w/facts.) then you blame the whole thing on money? hmmmmm. interesting. well, okay then: why do men control most of the money in this world? are they smarter? wiser? more responsible? oh, i think not. just take a peek at all the damage bush has done during his two terms in office. and he's far from done. thanks for proving my point. albeit in a round about way.

jenny

 

Again, an improvable fact. "Most." Nice how you changed it.

I named but a few things and showed that you were wrong.

Really? Actually 57% of people in college are women. When do you think men will be counted as minorities to help even out the the gender gap? Uh never. As for the race thing. This country has more whites than everyone else, makes sense that there would be more whites than say blacks...ya think?

http://www.usatoday.com/news/education/2005-10-19-male-college-cover_x.htm

Glass ceiling? Shit, most everyone hits a ceiling in their career. Maybe the fact that women are more likely to want flexibility for their family is part of the reason? Heck, i'm sure there are a lot of reasons that play into it(and yes, i'm sure sexism is a part of it). It is too simple(read naive) to rule it only sexism.

You answer a stereotype...with a stereotype?

Women have to take time off from work for the pregnancy...guys don't. A lot of women breastfeed...guys don't. There are a lot of reasons that women have to take off time from work and stay to take care of the kid. This time off DOES cause problems for women at work...while the guy can continue to work. It sorta makes sense not to stunt both people's careers. Either way, couples should decide what they want to do themselves.

Well, we can agree that its a full time job to be a mother...it is the most important job.

A lot of men do think like that. A lot of women think like that too. For example, teresa heinz kerry(john kerry's wife) made a STUPID remark about Laura bush not working. Well first off, she was a librarian, but she was also a mother. Yeah, that didn't offend all the stay at home moms.

This isn't a one way sexist thing as you make it out to be....but maybe the women who think like this are just conditioned by the patriarchal white, male dominated society?

Well compared to most people on this forum..i am a conservative male. I don't think like that

Another stereotype bites the dust... *hums some queen*

Ahh, the proverbial wave of the hand to dismiss me and tell me to educate myself...

The past isnt the present.

You think these stereotypes are so pervasive in american society? Do you honestly think that men could get away with saying women are weak and submissive? Do you think George Bush could get away with that? Hell no, he would be dragged out of the white house, tarred and feathed, and then castrated. Our culture is so hyper sensitive towards tolerance...

Ahh, so men don't have to say that women are weak. It's just subconcious right? Everything white males do keeps the woman and the black man down, right? I.E. We cant show any legal disadvantage facing women, so we'll just say every law passed by men is inherently biased and unfair against women and minorities.

say what?

 

arrogance and self confidence are not the same thing. truly confident men don't need to brag about how often they get women into bed, or how much money they make, or how fast their car will go. only arrogant (insecure) men do that. i personally find self confidence (without all the arrogance) in a man totally appealing. sadly, male arrogance is all too common. and it's much different for women. all we have to be is self confident and independent. and that's an automatic strike against us (by many men and women both). we don't even need to be arrogant.

jenny

 

edit:First off, lincoln was a well to do lawyer. He was self-made, but he was not poor(when he became president). Then notice how i said "most." Also, i most certainly did NOT blame it all on money. I said it was the real factor, IMO. Not the only factor, but the biggest factor. Running for office requires a lot of money, that excludes most poor people.


and what are you talking about...you told me to support my statements with facts? I already said its impossible to tell the exact reason why people vote the way they do. But i still cant find where you told me to support whatever with facts....forgive me if i did glance over it, i have been reading/responding to a lot on this thread and i'm sure i've missed something.

Urm, there are many reasons, including yes, sexism. I will not, however, rule it all because of sexism. That is too simple and silly.

I'm not sure what point you'ved proved in this whole thread. You dont seem to really have a point...just stereotypes and some complaints that a professor called sylvia plath neurotic...

 

then perhaps your reading skills are woefully lacking? or else you only see what you want to see? just a thought. because even if i have not been clear enough for you, several other women have left some insightful comments about sexism (that was my original thesis statement) on my thread. which caused you to get even more defensive. no wonder you're so confused! lol. i am a writer and a painter. and even though i might use myself as an example: to illustrate a point i want to make, that does not mean the subject is purely about me. make any sense? for example, never confuse the speaker of a poem with the actual life of the poet? many of plath's poems are only about her life on the surface. when really she is describing what many women have experienced. same thing goes for dickinson. (oh, and regarding bush? he should have been tarred and feathered a long time ago (IMO). or even better: impeached. but he will always have his daddy to cover his ass. no matter how bad things become here, and in other lands he had no business invading. so i doubt much would happen to him if he did make a blatantly sexist remark: he's gotten away w/much, much worse.)

jenny

 

i'm sorry, but i'm honestly confused by what you just wrote.

 

i'm sorry, too. i was honestly baffled by almost every word you wrote on my thread. so at least it's mutual, huh?

jenny

 

sure, i might be lonely otherwise

ho hum..twas fun i suppose.