Why are self-confident women written off as bitches by most men?

Discussion in 'Women's Forum' started by anonymousgurl21, May 24, 2006.

  1. DQ Veg

    DQ Veg JUSTYNA'S TIGER

    Messages:
    2,284
    Likes Received:
    4
    You know, that's a stereoptype, and it's a stereotype that the women's movement has saddled a lot of women with, that this is what women that stay home and take care of their kids are, or that that is what women that put their kids in day care are. This is an example of the baggage that Western ideologies put on working women, like I said in my post a little ways up. Professional women that come from other countries don't carry all that ideological baggage around with them, and I like that. The fact is that neither one of those things is true-a woman isn't 'submissive' (?!?) beacuse she stays home and takes care of kids, and she's not 'uncaring' if she puts them in daycare. Neither one of those things are true anyway-all of that is nonsense. Like anonymousgirl asked at the beginning, why do some women think that in order to be 'strong', that they have to hate men or be lesbians? That's an excellent question, and the answer is that they don't-but there are certainly some women in the women's movement that would like them to think they do. There are feminist philosophers that would have you feel guilty for doing anything that involves traditional male-female family relations. The fact is that there's nothing wrong with either of the things that you mentioned-staying at home taking care of the kids, or putting your kids in day care. Anybody that thinks there is is warped.
     
  2. NaykidApe

    NaykidApe Bomb the Ban

    Messages:
    8,418
    Likes Received:
    4
    Well, truth is most great authors of either sex were neurotic as hell. Trouble is, in my experience, so are most university professors.


    Most great thinkers are pretty dissapointed in the rest of us.


    Aren't we all?


    Don't know about bukoski, but Hemingway was gay himself. He was also an alcoholic who wound up killing himself.

    As for Ted Hughes, all I know is it seemed like most of the women in his life (Sylvia Plath for one as you probably knew) wound up commiting sucide.

    I'm guessing yeah. does it matter?


    If you stand out in any arena where most of the people around you are getting by by sitting down and playing along (acadiemia's the first place that comes to mind) you make yourself a target. for good and bad things.

    Great authors and other beautiful lunitics don't know how not to be themselves. that's why people hate then when they're alive and worship them after they die. ;)
     
  3. anonymousgurl21

    anonymousgurl21 Member

    Messages:
    161
    Likes Received:
    0
    deleted by author.
     
  4. Inquiring-Mind

    Inquiring-Mind Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,244
    Likes Received:
    0
    It's a matter of how men (consciously or unconsciously) and society views women.

    Sexually vs. persons - brain vs. body - possession vs. person

    What do men and society value about women? Sad but true three things and it does not include brains (the fact why history includes very little about women intellectuals vs. men intellectuals). In-fact the question itself
    suggests society does not care about what women value, because society assumes women value whatever men sets for them because he is thier protector and guider.

    How are women professionals addressed by society? It is always sexually, she is a sexy doctor, and she is a sexy lawyer. When it comes to men we refer to thier character and brains instead of thier sexuality and bodies. Just look at how the media treats Hillary Clinton, they don't care about what she says like they would care about a man politician. Everything expressed about her is sexual in nature, she is a whore, she is a slut, she should get boobs implants to increase her chances of wining in 2008.

    Strong vs. weak

    Many men believe it or not relate physical weakness and sexual submissiveness to every other part of a woman's life. Even Plato, two of his
    famous wishes were that he was born free and not a slave and that he was born a man not a woman. We insult men by insulting women.

    independent vs. dependent


    Men have the choice to marry or not, but a woman is considered incomplete without a man and a waste.
     
  5. NaykidApe

    NaykidApe Bomb the Ban

    Messages:
    8,418
    Likes Received:
    4
    Of course it's easy, that's why it's so popular.

    Most people will always choose what's easy over what's right, or fair, or even true.

    Jenny, the sad fact of life is thatmost people are idiots. If you expect them to be anything else (just beause they have a PHD for instance) you're going to walk around pissed off most of the time.

    If you learn to ignore the idoicy and just go on with your life maybe 100 years from now some male art-history professor will be talking shit about you to his class.
     
  6. anonymousgurl21

    anonymousgurl21 Member

    Messages:
    161
    Likes Received:
    0
    lol. dearest NakedApe. i only wish! but i know how the real "art" world works. it is a man dominated area. so i will be lucky to wind up with a mere "footnote." nevertheless, i do see myself as something of a serious historical critic. and the fact remains: women have been "screwed" by the literary art world, in more ways than one. how could any sane person think ted hughes is a better poet than sylvia plath? even though i consider myself mostly a visual artist (van gogh and diane arbus are my artistic heroes). i know that i lack the "painter's" genius to make it as an immortal one.

    however, that will not stop me from defending the genius of women, that should have received their recognition long ago in the arts. and sylvia plath is only one of them. i also think anne sexton has been much maligned as a "mental case" by mostly male critics. even though they praise a silly pretentious fool like robert lowell (another "mental case"). and it all boils down to power. who has it? mostly males. so what happens to the supreme talent of women (apart from giving birth to children?): it is belittled and stuffed into some dark corner. until a feminist studies dept. of some major university decides to bring it to light. period. btw, i know what you mean. and please don't think i am attacking you. in fact, i think you are too sweet and charming beyond words. which makes it all the more difficult for me to debate this issue w/you. lol.

    much peace and love,

    jenny

    ps. oh, and why are you the only one to never send me a pm? i'm just curious...
     
  7. Green

    Green Iconoclastic

    Messages:
    4,573
    Likes Received:
    7
    Theres a difference between a strong woman and a bitch. I'd love to meet an extremely opinionated strong girl who enjoys discussing her opinions, as I'm really opinionated. I wouldn't like to meet a girl who is rude and pushy.

    Men get away with being pushy more than women do in society, but there is a huge difference between being pushy and being strong mentally. Its part of the gender roles people have fabricated for us. I don't like to acknowledge gender roles, but our society still believes a ton of stupid shit, and gender roles is some of that.

    Nine times out of ten when a teenager gets pregnant, her boyfriend leaves her.

    Anyways, there is a lot of valid stuff being said about what needs to happen to address women's rights; however, there is also a lot of stereotyping and I would like to warn you that stereotypes are counterproductive.
     
  8. anonymousgurl21

    anonymousgurl21 Member

    Messages:
    161
    Likes Received:
    0
    i think this is the most truth to be found on this thread so far? and i thank you for that! i value honesty and truth a million times more than brilliant analysis. maybe it's because i have so much respect for the immortal poets? (male and female.) you have a very original way of seeing things. and i like that.

    jenny
     
  9. Green

    Green Iconoclastic

    Messages:
    4,573
    Likes Received:
    7
    Brilliant analysis is honesty and truth. If you would take what some crackpot says over cold hard facts, then you're off your rocker.

    I'm not calling anybody a crackpot. I was just speaking hypothetically.
     
  10. anonymousgurl21

    anonymousgurl21 Member

    Messages:
    161
    Likes Received:
    0
    yes, i can agree w/much of what you say here. but regarding stereotypes: what is the % of women caring for children, and the % of men "ruling" the world? that is no mere stereotype. that is a hard (and sad) fact. there's simply no way around it.

    jenny
     
  11. Maggie Sugar

    Maggie Sugar Senior Member

    Messages:
    8,002
    Likes Received:
    11
    Yeah, but, many people, men as well as womyn, see any strong womyn as a "bitch." (Beleive me, I know....;) ) "Being strong mentally" requires also being strong emotionally,in your actions and verbally. Which, to many, translates as "Bitch."
     
  12. DancerAnnie

    DancerAnnie Resident Beach Bum

    Messages:
    9,183
    Likes Received:
    27
    Stereotyping?

    LOL, that's what women live with on a daily basis. Women are thought of as submissive and weak. Most men will admit that men are mentally stronger than women and are the dominant ones in relationships.

    Where this comes from in the US is English Common Law, which is what settlers brought here when they settled the "New World". English Common Law said that when men and women got married, men "owned" the woman and the woman gave up all her possessions to the man...basically she sacrificed herself for marriage. Because back then, if a woman wasn't married she was an old hag, probably a witch of some kind that casted spells on people (gosh, I wish I was kidding).

    Not much has changed really. It's a stigma if a woman isn't married at 35 (a man hater) and if she doesn't want kids, she's considered abnormal.

    This isn't stereotyping, Green. This is real life stuff that happens to women. This is how our patriarchal society defines women. It's not right and something needs to happen.
     
  13. dudenamedrob

    dudenamedrob peace lily

    Messages:
    1,401
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ok.........very delicate subject but i'm going to "try" to comment on it.....

    First off let me say that I believe both sexes are equal in every way. I was raised that everyone is equal, and thats how I live my life, however since I have a bit of a differing opinion, I have no doubt that someone is going to immediately rebut what I have to say vehemently and list all of the flaws in my hypothesis..............and without knowing it, you will prove my point.

    Not ALL self-confident women are written off as bitches. You simply have some women out thier who for whatever reason are constantly on the defensive and feeling like they have to be in control/have something to prove..................and this gets very overbearing, for EVERYONE, not just men. I don't know if that is because they FEEL inferior at heart, or whether they are angry over all of the years that men DID look at females as submissive or what..........I can't answer this, all I know is that I have run into women like this in my own life, and yes, they come off as very bitchy. Also I believe that thier is a bit of a stigma attatched to the word bitch that some women take very defensively...............I have to say I don't agree with your opinion at all, it's way too general.....maybe it has NOTHING to do with you being a woman..........maybe its just the way you come off to people, of course most people will not accept that maybe its THEM, it must be SOMETHING, like this.........."I'm a strong-minded, self-confident woman, therefore that MUST be the reason people think i'm a bitch" God forbid anyone take responsibility for themselves, it has to be because of SOCIETIES problems.............not thier own........."You cops arrested me because i'm BLACK!!".......of course, it has nothing to do with the stereo you just stole out of that guys car.......you see what i'm getting at?? People are apt to find a reason to absolve themselves from responsibility, and if they fit into any particular niche normally thier mentality will immediately seek a solution relative to that niche. It has less to do with equality/racism/sexism/religion, than it does the feel good, apathetic, blame game and lack of personal responsibility that our society as a whole embraces. I agree thier is still sexism, and racism, and all sorts of other social problems, I have no doubt that in MOST places (certainly not where I live) thier is still some degree of male dominance, and I know that in some places, women still fight to be taken seriously, however, the big fights are over, change does not happen over night, and in time culture will adapt, however as long as thier are people still alive from a period in time when women were submissive, thiers always going to be SOME level of sexism, but in a couple generations, it will likely cease to exist, just give time for cleansing. To sum it up, in my opinion not ALL self-confident women are written off as "bitches" quite the contrary, in this culture most self-confident women are respected as equals (although this can vary from place to place, I know the South of the US still needs alot of work as far as ANY kind of equality goes), however, to hypothesis a generality to explain peoples aversion to you (in this case being labeled a "bitch), is more likely an attempt to shield yourself from truth..........playing the sexism card to absolve yourself from change or acceptance...........some people just have bad communicating skills.......and these people are often labeled "bitches" or "assholes"
     
  14. Raving Sultan

    Raving Sultan Banned

    Messages:
    6,069
    Likes Received:
    6
    The new king of the one-liners ^^^^
    One day he will be ranting "Take my wife....please!"
     
  15. Megara

    Megara Banned

    Messages:
    4,719
    Likes Received:
    0
    wow, this whole thread is just one massive stereotype.
     
  16. Raving Sultan

    Raving Sultan Banned

    Messages:
    6,069
    Likes Received:
    6
    Its an old joke that one liner comics like to use
     
  17. Raving Sultan

    Raving Sultan Banned

    Messages:
    6,069
    Likes Received:
    6
    Get in the kitchen and make me dinner now woman!
     
  18. hippiehillbilly

    hippiehillbilly the old asshole

    Messages:
    19,251
    Likes Received:
    8
    dilligaf ,, well a lota folks consider her a bitch..

    I dont..

    IT AINT BRAGGIN MUTHER FUCKER IF YA CAN BACK IT UP!!

    an she can.. :)

    why do men geek over her?
    probably cause shes smarter an can out work 90% of them on earth..

    so therefore they get there glass egos shatterred..

    personally i love self confident independent women.. would much rather be surrounded by them than a buncha men with the same attitude..
     
  19. anonymousgurl21

    anonymousgurl21 Member

    Messages:
    161
    Likes Received:
    0
    it does: that most lesbians don't have to worry about seeming "too" self-confident. they know that many straight men prefer women to be passive and submissive. but since lesbians prefer women sexually, they don't have to remain "passive" and "weak" just to appeal to men.

    jenny
     
  20. anonymousgurl21

    anonymousgurl21 Member

    Messages:
    161
    Likes Received:
    0
    sorry, but i'm not buying it. you come off as an apologist for some of the many ways some men behave badly towards women. did you even read what maggie said earlier?

    "Yeah, but, many people, men as well as womyn, see any strong womyn as a "bitch." (Beleive me, I know.... ) "Being strong mentally" requires also being strong emotionally,in your actions and verbally. Which, to many, translates as "Bitch."~Maggie Sugar


    so if a man is strong and fiercely independent, he is to be admired and respected. by both men and women alike. however, if a woman has the same qualities, then she is difficult, or full of herself. and yes, some might even go so far as to think of her as a bitch. also, this thread is more about an attitude, than the actual verbalizing of the word. i have never been called a bitch before. but i have been treated like one. and it was always when i was challenging convention.

    and america is still mostly a white male dominated country. all the proof you need is the white house. how many women or african american u.s. presidents have we had so far? zero. what sort of message does that send out to our children? it teaches them that they should be careful of what they dream for. especially if you are a little girl or african american. because certain goals are unrealistic. and some people will think badly of you, if you overstep those social boundaries. so either you learn to limit yourself (and your dreams), or risk being judged harshly by the majority. emily dickinson wrote a very famous poem about this exact subject. and she was treated like a madwoman by many in her town. and only had four poems published during her lifetime. and she was a brilliant poet. while "sane" women that wrote "safe" little poems about taking care of their husbands and homes, were being widely published.

    so have we come very far since that victorian time? not if you look at the facts: sylvia plath died in 1963. and was finally given a pulitzer (posthumously) almost twenty years later. (while her husband went on to become poet laureate of england!) 1983 was not all that long ago. we have made some positive changes. but it has been a long time coming. and we still have much work ahead of us.

    jenny
     

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice