Reminds me of Bentee Chaupai written by the 10th Sikh Guru Gobind Singh Ji. Reads very much like Davids psalms. I know you can't use YT but for those that are interested: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1Uw2FHZawA"]YouTube- Message to God: Words of a Guru - Amazing Must Watch!
Thanks. I might break down and try it out, since it's from a trusted source--you. This raises an interesting question though. Does God speak only to Christians and Jews? Can Muslims, Buddhists, and a pagan or two have a spiritually important idea that we don't need to regard as dangerous or demonic? I've found some beauty in Aztec-Toltec spirituality, which would be great if it weren't for all the human sacrifice.
Most of the core concepts of the Bible are not even original to the Hebrews. Sometime when you have a few minutes to burn, go to Wiki and look up Zoroastrianism. It is one of the oldest religions in the world. It appears to be the source of the Jews' and Christians' ideas about monotheism, end times, final judgment, etc.
I like the Zen Buddhist story in which someone reads a passage from the Sermon on the Mount to a Zen master named Gasan, and Gasan says, "That is very good. Whoever said that is not far from enlightenment."
Of course, this will get us into the usual go around. The Judeo-Christian fundamentalists will claim that the Pentateuch was written much earlier than the Avesta, and that the Bible influenced the Avesta rather than vice versa. But as OWB has told us, an afterlife and hell were not traditional Jewish concepts. The Jews managed to deny them for most of their history, despite being surrounded by Mesopotamians and Egyptians who believed in an afterlife. That was so until after the Babylonian captivity and the period of Persian suzerainty from 538 to 330 B.B., when the Torah reached its final redaction. Satan, resembling the Zoroastrian Ahriman, makes his appearance as a major player. In the pre-exilic document, 2 Samuel 24:1, it says that the Lord was angry with Israel and made David bring trouble on them. The Lord ordered a census of the people to hold them accountable. In 1 Chronicles 21:1, it is Satan who "wanted to bring trouble on the people of Israel, so he made David decide to take a census." From the Zorastrians, we seem to have gotten hell, Satan, and a more refined concept of angels and demons. Apparently we also got Paradise. The Greek word paradeisos comes form the Avestan pairidaeza.
But on a larger scale: tens of thousands per year, on the average. The purpose was a bit different, too. Jesus' sacrifice was in atonement for our sins--and it was the Romans who did the crucifying, not for the purpose of making an offering to the gods, but as punishment of an accused troublemaker. Aztec/Toltec sacrifices were a means of sustaining the gods by the tonali (life energy) of the sacrificial victims, in gratitude for what the gods gave the worshipers in resurrecting the human race and sustaining it by good harvests. To sustain the sun in its struggle against darkness, the sacrifice was a beating human heart. For Xipe Totec, the Flayed Lord of harvest who gave his flesh for humanity, the priests dressed in the flayed skins of the sacrificial victims and wore them until they burst, symbolizing the re-emergence of life. For Tlaloc, the rain god, the sacrifice was children, by drowning, and the priests would collect their tears as additional sacrifice. Etc. What do we give Jesus for His sacrifice, except our gratitude?
But seriously, Okiefreak: If you're going to ask questions like this, you should at least get a copy of Zen Flesh, Zen Bones and take a look to see if it has an answer to your question - it's pretty easy reading, except maybe for the koan section. I spent several years as a lay leader in an Evangelical Free church. I used to prepare discussion guides for the adult small group ministry, among other things. But I'll reveal my personal spiritual bias: Fundamentally I've always been and always will be a mystic, and it's my belief that any religion that contains spiritual truth must have a mystical basis. I find such a basis in Christianity and in Buddhism. And there is also a mystical tradition in Islam - Sufism. After all: Don't we believe that the writers of the Bible were at least to some extent in touch with the Divine - aside from those with political agendas? That's what mysticism is. And when Jesus talked about the Kingdom of Heaven, he sure wasn't talking about conquering Rome, was he? So it's my contention that any commonality among religions will be found in whatever teachings or scriptures resulted from a direct knowledge of God.
I am grateful for the mercy of redemption. What does the "sacrifice" of Jesus represent but mans judgment of himself. The resurrection representing God's judgment of his son. It is unfortunate that the idea that sacrifice is needed still persists. I desire mercy not sacrifice, learn what this means.
Actually the Roman program of crucifixion went way beyond punishment of a criminal, it was designed to encourage the compliance and regard of the populace. The idea of human sacrifice in christian teaching is exactly that of the most primitive sacrificial cults, to gain favor with God.
I'm glad you brought this up. I think it's a wonderful collection, a great travel companion for a spiritual journey that's never over. I see no conflict with true Christianity at all, and on the contrary, see it as supporting Christian spiritual enlightenment. What the book conflicts with are the rigid attitudes of so many self-styled Christians of Pharisaical persuasion who know all the answers, cut and dried and set out in black and white in a book distributed by Gideon. Some of them might benefit from reading this book. For instance, the title Zen Flesh, Zen Bones relates to the story of Bodhidharma that one student had his flesh, another his bones but the one who kept silent had his marrow. Then there is the opening tale of master Nan-in, overfilling the pompous professor's teacup to illustrate the problem of being so full of oneself that one can't learn anything new. Or the search for the bull, that ends with no bull (the bull being transcended). Or the final pre-Zen passage from the Dharanas: "When in worldly activity, keep attentive between the two breaths, and so practicing be born again." Even "Born Again" Christians might find meaning in these words and the spiritual tradition behind them. As Jesus said (Gospel of Thomas, saying 113): "...The Kingdom of the Father is already spread out on the Earth and people do not see it." Spoken like a true Zen master!
was written, the part christianity cares about, by a bunch of guys who knew a guy. yes they were his contemporaries. they were also the nerds of their time. more concerned with nuances of their toy, literacy, then actually preserving for posterity a realistic impression of their context.
Well then!!! Looks like I was preaching to the choir! Yeah, I'm fond of that quote from the Gospel of Thomas too - it kinda gives me goosebumps. I think some of the parables of Jesus are more like something a Zen master might say.
Presumably you're talking about the gospels. Actually in some cases, written by a guy who knew a guy who knew a guy - or possibly even further removed, written long after all the apostles were dead. And as you say, in those days there wasn't much of a concept of "historical accuracy." Each of the gospels was written with a particular agenda in mind - and then there were later revisions. The epistles - the letters - were another matter, though, for the most part. Unfortunately they don't contain much historical info about Jesus - and most were apparently written by Paul, a man who never even met Jesus - at least, not in the flesh. But you have to figure there were some words and deeds of Jesus that stirred people, and stuck with them, and the most important gist of a lot of those events must be there for us to find.
Q source, which is sometime referred to as Q document. It is a hypothetical textual source for the Gospel of Matthew and Gospel of Luke. Q is defined as the "common" material found in Matthew and Luke but not in Mark . This ancient text supposedly contained the logia or quotations from Jesus. However, the existence of a highly treasured dominical document, being omitted from all the early Church catalogs and going unmentioned by all the fathers of the early Church, remains one of the great conundrums of modern Biblical scholarship. From the beginning I regarded the teaching of Jesus as being those sayings and actions attributed to him. That there are colorizing or editorial contributions from others, to the teachings of Jesus, is obvious in the text.
There it is again. Forgiving ourselves is so important for clearing our connection to God. A holdover from Paul tying the crucifixion to the idea of the sacrificial lamb, which Jews of the time could relate to. Certainly Jesus paid a price - because a literal blood sacrifice was needed to appease God? Or because people need something they can believe in, so that they can completely accept the fact that they're truly forgiven, once and for all?
Something more akin to the Gospel of Thomas, maybe. Which leads me to wonder if there was an actual document or only lines of oral transmissions before the Gospels were written - after over a century had passed with no sign of Jesus' "return," and people decided it would be a good idea to put it all in writing. Yup, that's pretty much how I see it too.
The most extreme example to illustrate the most fundamental aspects of our relationship to our creator, our environment, and our relationship to each other. The prevailing wind of human culture is to assign guilt in the guise of the pseudo noble phrase of "responsibility". Responsibility in this sense requires adjudication, arbitration, judgment. We find ourselves, everyone, suspect, even to the extent of scanning for defect before we emerge from the womb. What exactly are humans responsible for? Do we make the earth spin? Jesus was right in his assessment, they know not what they do. They are operating under false pretenses.
Something like that would fit the theory. Jesus said remember me, not write it down. The remarkable thing is that after 2,000 years anything remains. If it were up to a book it would not be so. It is the living word and the works of mercy and faith that are the cause. Jesus said there was much that some of his disciples did not understand and I am sure that is true of any age.