For the record, I just laughed at that statement, never said it myself. No, I'm not, because I dont have "neopagan" or Wiccan beliefs. My beliefs are the same as my ancestors believed 5,000 years ago. I honor my ancestors, pray to the gods that I need, look to them for example of how to live and live my life in understanding of my time. I believe in nature spirits, and other gods and that I will be with my ancestors in their otherworld when I die. Nothing I do is trying to recreate the past, but rather an evolution of the way things were done. In 5,000 bc, were the practices of my ancestors "neopagan" because 30,000 years before their ancestors were pagan? nope. Just because there is a 1,000 year gap there doesnt mean I have to take the label of neopagan. My worldview is like theirs, but applied to my time. Not their time applied to my worldview. And for the record, pagan should imply newer automatically, because they never called themselves pagan to begin with. Who gave me ownership rights? my ancestors. and that is a typical fluff arguement. Thats I was talking about earlier. Feel full right to just take take take. Ownership right is a matter of decent. Its not so much that I "own" my cultural religion, but that you should respect it enough not to steal from it. Just like, as much as i love and respect my own culture, I love and respect others culture more. That is why I dont steal them blind when I see something cool. Even down to body art, I refuse to have any tattoo done that I dont have a valid link to. Same with my ear lobes. Because you have the Wiccan Rede in your signature, and everything you say is from Wicca. Im sure you cast a circle, im sure you call corners, and burn certain candles in certain corners, and im sure you have pentacles, and that you do the bread/wine penis/vagina thing, and that you say merry we meet merry we part blah blah blah. If i am wrong, then I appologize. If i say "fluffy bunny Wiccan" and you answer, then it is you that called yourself that. I know people who have been pagan longer than I have been alive and are as lost and confused as a 15 year old gothy girl in the New Age section. Time=jackshit. Some people are Christians their whole life, while their minister might have converted 3 years ago, has a conection to his god, and studied his ass off. What if you have been pagan 1 year, but are attuned to the collective conscience of your ancestors? You have the world of knowledge then, and it all makes sense. It would take 300 years in the Lllewyn section to get that. Who cares about how long. This isnt a merit contest. But for me, 7 years, and i got my fire badge and archery badge too.
I'm sorry, I thought it was you that said it. Been a while since I read the thread, and I'm only human. If the "fluffy bunny Wiccan" thing wasn't directed at me, then maybe I was being overly sensitive. It just seemed like you were using it in direct reference to my post, therefore meant for me. Just for the record, I don't: Well, maybe you got me on the pentacles, but I like them. I also have a very nice ankh, a georgeous celtic trinity, an Eye of Osirus, a Star of David, and a number of beautiful crosses As for using the Wiccan Rede in my signature, I simply think there are worse words to live by. I could reword it, but it's eloquently simple the way it is. I happens to be the only part of the rede I like. I've heard it said a lot of different ways, and I tend to agree with most of them. I begin to see where we disagree. I don't see how honoring another culture enough to want to make all or part of it part of my belief is stealing. I don't see how it in any way diminishes a faith to have someone not descended from it believe in it. True, pagan is not a term any culture ever applied to itself. Pagan and heathen were names used by others to describe people who didn't ascribe to their ways or beliefs. Pagan shouldn't mean newer, it should mean different. But that's not how people use the word today, and we kind of have to deal with the here and now. I'm glad for you that you are able to apply your ancestors beliefs to your life. Hell, you're lucky you have a strong tie to a particular heritage. Not everyone has that. Again, true. I was simply curious. No need to get snippy.
sorry, im a snippy guy first thing in the morning lol. Look, what I am saying is that there is nothing in other cultures or heritage that you dont have in yours. Imagine if you had children, and they called another woman mother just because she thought she was better than you. We all have our gods, we all have our heritage, we all have our ancestors.
I didnt start this thread to argue in anyway, and i appologize for my assumptions, but indeed, the fluffy bunny statement wasnt aimed at you specifically.
lol. I tend to be snippy in the morning too, so I understand. I do have children, and yes, it would hurt, but I don't agree with the analogy. I was in the military, and the first thing that comes to mind is the officers in the military. One officer doesn't get upset because you call another officer sir or ma'am, they're just happy that you're being respectful. Not the best analogy, but hopefully you can see what I mean.
Well, I'm a reconstructionist, to put it simply. As Heron said, I follow the gods of my ancestors, and apply their traditions and beliefs to today's world. I don't consider myself pagan at all. That word was used by the Romans as a term of derision against those who didn't follow the desert god. Much like the word ****** was/is used as a derogatory term for people of dark skin. There was an attempt to "reclaim" the term(pagan), which was then spoiled by a group of people who used not being Christian as an excuse to have no morals of any sort. People who have twisted the Wiccan rede all out of shape, to fit their wants. I don't care to be associated with the term, myself, as it doesn't have anything to do with my faith. As far as ownership, the blood which flows through my veins gives me connection to my gods, and "ownership" has nothing to do with it. Guilt by association is a very real concept in today's world, and I don't care to be associated with most pagans. Also, it's not right to denigrate someone else's faith by treating it as part of a buffet lunch for the soul. The gods are real, not merely words in a book. The aren't a mix and match picture book for kids. You don't worship Thor today and Shiva tomorrow. It's disrespectful to the gods to bounce around like an epileptic monkey on crack. As well as a good way to get yourself a fine case of divine retribution. I've known a few people who were disrespectful enough that the gods took notice, IMO. Their lives are crap. I don't mean to rant, but this stuff tends to set me off a little. I've been to riuals where people were making offerings to Frodo, for cryin' out loud! That's fine if ya want to do it on your own time, but it has no place in a sacred ritual. Again, it's disrespectful. Where was I, oh, yeah. Look, if people want to take ideas and practices and use them, fine. As I said before, what gets me irate is when I meet someone who inquires about my faith, and ends up associating me with some freak who claimed the same faith as mine. Consistency. Make it your watchword in all that you do. It will take you far. By the way, animal sacrifice? I know folks in CA who do it on a regular basis, and they've never had a permit. I guess what the government doesn't know won't hurt you, eh? At least, that's how I view it. Ultimately, it's none of my busness what others do, so long as it doesn't affect me, or color others impression of me. I live me own life, and do my own thing. Others can judge me by my actions or not. I didn't mean to get preachy, but it's a bad habit of mine. Comes from too many years of telling people what to do. I also don't mean to be arguementative, but again, it's a failing of mine. I'm afraid I've turned into an old codger prematurely,lol.
I guess I never answered your question. I follow the old gods of the Germanic people. That is to say, the indo-europeans. From modern day Germany up into the northern lands of Denmark, Sweden, Norway, and so forth. I have, in the past called myself Asatru, but again, I'm trying to steer clear of that term. For one, it's not really indicative of my faith, and it's also been corrupted by a bunch of fluff bunny Wiccatru. Pagan? How long? Well, as I said, I don't consider myself to be pagan. I've been studying non christian religions for, oh, 15 years now. I found my current faith about 9 years ago. It was like coming in from the cold and wrapping myself in a warm blanket next to a crackling log fire. As Heron said in another post, when someone really believes in something, you can see it. They shine with it. It's a beautiful thing. Our society encourages people to be too accommodating, too wishy washy. We are always reminded that things aren't black and white. Well, some things are. As a people, Americans have no sense of self, and no real belief in anything. Everything has become negotiable. Everyone is afraid to take a stand, for fear of being labled as a radical, or a danger. See now, here I go preaching again. I'll just stop. Peace be with you. :&
Well said brother. Actually, in regards to the word "pagan", i tried to divorce myself from that years ago, for the same reasons, so as not to be associated with "them" nine times out of ten i say animist, which describes my beliefs more than pagan does.
There you go, that's it! Imagine the reaction if began saluting officers in the opposing army. Better yet, say you're a Marine today, and tomorrow you show up at formation in a navy uniform. The next day, you're wearing marine "A" pants, and an army BDU top, with an air force beret. That's what I mean when I say it's disrespectful.
I like that analogy, way to take it, turn it, and make a better point lol. Oh and dont forget, wearing a Japanese Zero pilots kamikaze headscarf. and a big red star patch on your shoulder.
I use Pagan because people at least comprehend that I'm not in any way Christian as soon as they see/hear it. Do I think of myself that way, no. I would say that there was probably more that they were doing wrong. I've seen peoples' lives turn to crap also, but they usually belonged in the group mentioned previously, the ones who use not being Christian to have no morals, and twisted the Wiccan Rede to mean what they wanted it to. I've never seen anyone who was a good person punished simply for having an eclectic personal faith. Okay....you seem to understand the military analogy somewhat, but let me put it to you a different way. I was in the Navy. I wore my Navy uniform all the time on duty. But I worked with Marines part of the time. When I was with them, I followed their rules, used their terminology, and answered to their commanding officer. When I went to the firing range, the officer in charge was Army. But on the range I followed his rules, used his terminology, and answered to him. The base I was on also had a large number of foreign officers and enlisted. I was required to salute those officers, and treat them with the same respect as my own. If it was appropriate to the situation, I even had to follow their orders. I was always Navy, first and foremost, but I answered to others at times. Is this disrespect?
That analogy you give just now relates more to territorial deities rather than familial ones. If one group moved to another area, their ancestoral gods went too, but the regional deities were left behind. ie the Milesians in Ireland. Kept their tribal gods of course, but adopted the gods and goddesses of the land too. They married the two in their mythology. That is how you have a god in Ireland married to a goddess of that land, and the same god in Britain married to another goddess of that land. Thats just how the stories were written to include the new deities. They would never abandon their tribal gods for another tribes, they might adopt the same ones of the land, but never replace their ancestors gods.
I am an eclectic pagan, and share many beliefs with Wicca, but am not Wiccan. For example, I do not believe in the Wiccan rede or the rule of three. It would be disrespectful both to myself and to Wiccans if I called myself a Wiccan. That's how I find most "eclectic pagans" to be.
Didn't they usually marry the local gods into their mythos as being weaker or lesser than their personal gods? I seem to remember that being the case most of the time. Anyway, what I was trying to get at is that I'm not trying to be disrespectful in any way. Trust me, I have no illusions about my chances for any kind of a life if I piss off a diety. They have more avenues for retribution than any human has of escape.
No actually the Tuatha de Dannan became quite powerful in the Milesian pantheon, by the name they gave them it shows that they had more than utmost respect for these deities. I cant speak for others though, but as far as the milesians go, they didnt make lesser gods at all. Though Lugh did become king of the Tuatha, it wasnt a powertrip thing.
just cuz....thats deep. Or it could be said, Why does anyone believe the way they do? Just dunno! Why is explaination of belief such a taboo to wiccans?
I have no idea, it is really very odd. No wait, yes I do, several theories in fact ... Disclaimer; I'm not directing this at anyone in particular, you have as much right to answer back as remain silent, if you get offended well gee that's just too bad, etc. Anyway, on to the theories ... The whole not telling makes it seem all like mysterious and stuff, as if nobody can possibly under the mindblowing like thing about it. Perhaps it's a last vestige to exclusiveness, seeing as 'wicca 101' is on offer to anyone with at least dial up. So naturally they feel rather smug about being the only one who 'gets it'. Naturally if anyone questions it then, oh glorious day, they can dance the 'oh noes I'm so persecuted, boo hoo, nobody understands [insert 800 fucking exclamation marks], blah blah' jig. *** Must thank my lectuer for inspiring this one, he was on about something else but the basic principles apply. It honest to Gods hasn't occured to them to consider it. Wicca as it stands today has become a marketing tool. A very beautifully crafted one, but a tool no less. Made for a generation that is bombarded with information near constantly with no time or space for deep thought before you need to get the next hit. In short you become a junkie for new age trivia, your competency measured by not much more than how many key words per utterance, with a need to proclaim experience that is still shorter than my lifetime* . Without being able to pause and take things in any resonance is lost. So as ecelcitism is encouraged (as that'll shift more books) the unwitting subscriber presues yet another fix in hopes of bitesize enlightenment. *20 years isn't long enough to be a true master of anything much, and if you're still breathing you've still got learning to do. If you are under 20 and trying to pull that line with me, then you best exit now. Running in a serpentine fashion is advised. *** In many cases attempts to rationialise wiccan belief/practises will cause the whole damn thing to fall apart. My personal death blow was when I tried to equate the 'law of three' with the theory of relativity. I cannot see any way that could work; and if putting more faith in Einstein than [insert Llewellyn author here] makes me a heretic, well than chain me to stake. *** Llewellyn haven't bought out a book about it yet [sorry, couldn't resist] *** OK if I carry on with this my eyes are going to roll out their sockets. Now to be fair, it is possible to practise wicca with a intelligent conviction behind it, but the only people I know of who can are the writers of glorious wicca related snark (obsidian mirror, wicca for the rest of us, etc). Read into that what you will.
wow....that was good. about the law of three, do you know where that comes from? Not that what you do comes back in three, but rather what is done to you give back in three. Its a vendetta.
