Where mysticism fails

Mystics always seem to get wrapped up in one particular aspect of the occult and forget why.

Why does anyone follow the spiritual path in the first place - to become happy isn't it? At the end of the day, what other purpose do people follow the spiritual path?

To clear their souls of all it's worldly properties to it may become light enough to ascend. Why do that?

To become happy. Same with attaining paradise - what's wrong with hell - ah that's right, something to do with not being happy there isn't it.

An alchemist with the philosopher's stone has nothing if (s)he's not happy.

This is a point that I think should be reitterated in mysticism.

I was talking to a girl who was a kitchen witch - I asked her what the point of it was and she said "just to be joyful". Joy.

It's obvious when you think about it so why do some people forget.

Blessings

Sebbi

 

Where mysticism fails, LODOG PREVAILS!!!!

 

Or it's to discover why one is unhappy.

One could finally come to the realisation that one is unhappy because one is not happy with the cards life has dealt them. It comes down to "why me?" The deeper question then becomes "Why must I die?" "Why was I born?" is secondary because there is nothing one can do about it. One then tries not to die, knowing that it is futile. This process of realisation is called spiritualism (not communing with Spirits), being spiritual, being more sensitive to Life.

 

Some do get too wrapped up in a more or less limited thing.
But not all. Nor are all mystically inclined people un-happy, or lacking joy.
Everyone seeks happiness, that is only natural.
The difference, I suppose, is that a mystic would say that the joy he/she experiences is not dependent on outside causes. I mean, some people are happy with a bar of choc, but when it's gone, so is the happiness. That seems to be one argument anyway.

 

I'd like to see a further redefinition of "mysticism" and the spiritual life. It's one thing to be a Shaman and another to be using crystals or ouija boards. It's one thing to be a Buddhist and another thing to be a witch. To some it is a hobby, to others it is life itself.

 

I agree entirely - on my other board I am known as "the resident alchemist" and I do not consider myself to be un-happy or lacking joy. Certainly my life is pretty melancholy a lot of the time and I don't always feel happy but I'm not un-happy.

Hmmm... I take your point - very Buddhist viewpoint.

I originally posted this, not to go into the nature of happiness, but the search for this but digression is healthy so I won't complain.

Blessings

Sebbi

 

I wrote this in an earlier thread.

Mysticism is the universal path of the Mystic, or one who seeks the direct experience of ultimate reality. Mysticism sets aside desire and fear (the ego itself) in order to experience, directly, an unbiased perception of reality as a single, unified whole, as a self-evident, meta-existent divinity whose expression is existence itself, consciousness itself, and love itself. The mystic seeks union with the divinity by realizing his (her) own existence, consciousness and love is identical with that of the divinity.

Jesus, Buddha, Mohammed, Krishna, Rumi, Bodhidharma, Isaiah, Lao Tsu and many, many others were all mystics. And, regardless of whether you know it or not, you are too.

Well, some Mystics do use tools to help them break out of their habitual interpretations of reality. These tools may include such experiential things as drugs, meditation, rituals, etc., or such external projections of the psyche as Tarot Cards, Ouija Boards, Crystals, Rorshach tests and so on.

It is vitally important to know that the use of these tools is not necessarily the practice of Mysticism itself, in the same way that reading National Geographic is not necessarily the same thing as travel. It is also at least as important, if not more important, to know that all spiritual tools can lead to dependence and can create their own habitual interpretations of reality.

You just have to pick your habits wisely.

Peace and Love

 

Even Buddha said that eventually, ultimately, even meditation has to be dropped just as ALL desire will have to be transcended, even the desire for Enlightenment & Nirvana.

But he was speaking to higher order disciples. The newbies would have to use these tools until they came to the point where it was a hinderance.

As with most disciplines there is an ego component. Some suppress and repress it, some exploit it and some transcend it.

It comes down to whether one seeks to know existence through oneself or through the limits of oneself (having control over Nature). One can liken it to white magick and black magick, the subjective or the objective, control over one's self or the control over others.

Let's say that I work with dreams. Do I seek to manipulate my dreams so that my reality changes?, do I seek to decode my dreams so that I can be aware of what is coming?, or do I enjoy my dreams for what they are, entertainment?

Seeking after truth is a desire. Buddha said that desire will have to be transcended. But one has to go through the process to understand the futility of desiring. With that understanding there is a dropping of that desire. It is in actually experiencing something that one understands it. One can then choose to transcend it, and with that choice it will drop by itself, there is no need to drop it.

So what I see as someone who is into New Age is but the seduction of the Old Age repackaged. It still appeals to the ego, it appeals to the mind. That which appeals to the mind will make the mind stronger.

 

Actually, I was only saying what others, Buddhist, Hindu, Christian etc mystics tend to say.
But I'm not convinced. Too often I think, mysticism is simply an attempt to escape this world and it's problems. And that usually proceeds by a process of denial of the world, and rejection of what it does offer in the way of happiness and fulfillment. The world is seen as somehow intrinsically bad. A place of misery.
To get happiness I think we do need to be connected to the inner spirit, but I also think we need to seek to have and to create harmonious conditions in this world. It is very difficult to connect to the spirit if one is hungry, living under harsh conditions and so on.
But some mystics - some christians and hindu sadhus for example, actually seek pain and suffering through asceticism and 'self-mortification'. It's hard to equate any of that with happiness or the quest for it in my mind.

 

You just put to words, what I'd been thinking, just with a lot more precision.

You get Cabbalists talking about rearranging the letters of the Torah so that it's in the perfect combination.

You get esoterisists talking about the "psychoastral planes".

What does it mean. Not a lot. Not for 99.9999999999999999% of people anyway. Ultimate reality exists first in the present moment. For those who haven't achieved enlightenment yet this means, conflicting emotions, it means social circles, it means working to feed yourself, it means falling in love, it means having to tidy up after yourself, it means having to come face to face with some really difficult people.

In short, the first step to mystical perfection is to face your worldly problems, not run away from them.

Blessings

Sebbi

 

As opposed to feeling overwhelmed by them, get stressed out, do drugs, go on Prozac, contemplate suicide, etc.?

I've heard the refrain that meditators are wasting their life by sitting in a corner for hours on end. It may look that way, but I doubt that many people can sit still for more than a minute before their minds starts revolting. So who then is really the master?

Mysticism is just a way to understand the world. If one uses logic one can choose an extreme, a nihilistic view that the world is ugly, corrupt, doomed, hopeless, etc. One could feel hopeless to affect change. Or one can become aggressive and take the law into their own hands.

Yes, the world may be ugly, but the mature mind can accept it without being affected by it. One who sees the world as bad may become attached to the imagery and it taints their psychological outlook, it could cause them to become a social misfit and outcast.

A mystic on the other hand can seek out cause and affect and see what he can control within himself, within his own sphere of influence. This usually starts with how one thinks and sees the world. Becoming detached he may be better able to formulate a plan.

I think that it is going to the opposite extreme. Which is why the Middle Way has appeal.

 

The trouble is that it can become a whole philosophy of 'escapism'. It's good to be able to be still - I fully agree with that. The problem comes when that's all someone wants to do. They can get absorbed in inner bliss and sit quite oblivious whilst the world around them falls to pieces.
If mysticism leads to some kind of better mode of being in the world, and leads paole to seek to change and improve things here, then It's a very good thing. But many traditional mystical paths really take an anti-world view, and see the world simply as something to be transcended, risen above. The final consumation is often to be delayed until some kind of afterlife.
So that's the danger of mysticism as I see it - it can turn people into what Nietzche called 'after worlds men', who are wholly complacent, or 'detached' when it comes to the real problems of struggling humanity.

You could say - but when everyone becomes a mystic it will all work out. But there is liitle sign of that happeneing, and the conditions that are established under the current global capitalist system don't foster any kind of real spirituality or awakening in people. Quite the reverse - it is increasingly a mind control system. So I say that those who do have some spiritual opening shouldn' become too attached to mysticism, esp in a passive form- it's ok up to a point, it has it's function, but action is needed too. And there are many mystics who just don't see that, or even don't really care - because of an 'Im alright Jack' kind of attitude.

 

i am currently reading a book called autobiography of a yogi. it has a good point pertaining to mysticism and escapism. several times, the author was told that it is necessary for a mystic to escape the world-reject it and focus on divine union-transcendental experience, for a time that is. once true union is made one no longer needs tools-meditation, crystals, rituals-to commune with God or whatever you want to call it. once this is reached, it is one's duty to spread the love of God in their own manner, to share their revelation in the best way possible with the world. it is said that one monk achieving union with the divine does more good for the world than the most charitable person who is ignorant of the divine light. the focus is finding God(or whatever), and once you truly find it, what but good can come of it?

 

Just surfed through and I really enjoyed this thread. I am Hellenic Pagan of a decidely Pythagorean bend and I have to agree with you even though I am of mystic inclination so to speak. I think moderation is the key; either extreme is bad, but then extremes usually are. I try to live in the grand illusion enough to keep the bills paid and a roof over my head, but I nonetheless keep in mind that it is after all a grand illusion. It's like playing a game just most people don't realize it's just a game.

 

kinda my opinion too. life is beautifull, but society, gouvernment, religions, ... try to break us, to follow their rules. i try to live my life without looking to these rules. i do break the laws of my country (Belgium) on a regular base (mostly by using drugs), but i try not to harm people.

i cannot understand that society, gouvernment, religions, ... take away our freedom and that we (the world's population) follow those laws without thinking if we want to follow them.

 

BlackBillBlake,

How exactly do you define a mystic?

What exactly is action?

As far as escapism goes, most would rather indulge in drugs, alcohol, TV, playing games, watching a movie, surfing the 'net, etc. Escapsim is all around, whether it is becoming part of a group or mob. All that you may see is that the other person's escapism is different from yours. The difference is therefore one of awareness. All one can do is try to be always be aware, to be aware just a little more each moment. It is not to be more logical each moment, just be more aware, to just be aware.

 

Not to sound negative, but...the problem with this thread is that many of you are falling into the same trap that you accuse government, religion and society on and that is (mild) condemnation of other peoples actions or life styles simply because you don't see the purpose or desire in it. some folks NEED that mysticism thing to be happy others do not. For each person there is a path if they truly seek it and it is not my place to critisize their path simply because it isn't the path that I chose. Kind of harsh and I opplogize because some folks aren't happy unless they are on other folks.

 

The reason that I practice Mysticism is so that I can turn nails into fine goat cheese, and have a deep vibrating tenor sound be made when I enter a room of people. Not to be happy or find out why I am unhappy.

 

Bamboo - I agree on the governmnet thing you say.

Anyways, the purpose of this thread wasn't to put mysticism down. I have been very interested in mysticism for quite a few years now and have drawn a lot from it. However, it reached a point, where it became a path that wasn't mine and I had to leave.

The reason why I posted this is because I was expressing what I percieved the boundries of mysticism to be. I don't think any one particular path can really be right for anyone for the whole journey and it would be absurb to say that any path is perfect. By pointing out where mysticism fails, doesn't mean it that it has no merit whatsoever.

Peace
Sebbi

 

Sebbi...sorry i got on your case. There are many paths and it's not uncommon to out grow one path and move to another...as long as it has heart....