Whats very wrong with all Religion?

What do you mean by evidence and proof? Will only direct observation do? Not even criminal trials are that strict. People have gone to death row on the basis of circumstantial evidence, and in government administrative hearings even hearsay is allowed, and evaluated according to the decision maker's judgments about its probative value under given circumstances. What level of proof is required? Scientific proof, courtroom proof, administrative-level proof (substantial evidence, probable cause)?
I think there is substantial circumstantial and hearsay evidence supporting a HIP (Higher Intelligent Power), even though it is inconclusive--enough for a reasonable person to bet on.

Placing the burden of proof on those making an assertion or supporting an extraordinary claim is a reasonable policy, but that's all it is--a policy. And saying that something is "easily explainable by natural processes" doesn't necessarily settle matters either. For example, Catholic evolutionary biologist Kenneth Miller and Evangelical geneticist Francis Collins argue that the universe is fine-tuned to create a high probability of intelligent life capable of knowing God. They base their conclusion on natural processes. Dawkins provides alternative explanations of sorts: some as yet undiscovered cohesive force could account for the fine tuning, or it could be unfinely tuned in other parallel universe(s) as yet discovered. Are these alternatives more plausible? Collins invokes Occam's reazor to say "No". (I think they're just as plausible, so the contest must be resolved by other considerations.)

I think many atheists approach the question of God as though it were a scientific research hypotheses. Yet in everyday life, we have to make decisions on the basis of incomplete evidence. What person to date or marry, what college to go to, what job to take, who to vote for, etc. If we waited for scientific proof, we'd be dead--and able to confirm the existence of an afterlife by personal experience. Besides, setting up a suitable experiment would be difficult or impossible, apart from the fact that no funding source I know of is backing this kind of research. I go on the basis of the best evidence available, and evaluate it on the basis of my best judgment, based on reason and experience, take a chance, and hope it works out. That's how I approach religion. "Faith", as Luther defined it, is a "joyful bet." And it won't matter who anyone thinks should carry the burden of proof. The proof is in the pudding.

Of course, my religious views are "opinion", not truth, but hopefully they're informed opinions. I agree that people can't expect to go around believing anything they choose and be respected for their "faith". I'm sure there are plenty of people on this Forum who believe in Tarot cards, astrology, and maybe even sympathetic magic, but I'm skeptical, because they really do seem to be at odds with science and reason. I think faith should be used as a last resort, and should never be used to trump logic and science.

 

One article in a paper does not represent everyone praying around the world. What about all the people who do do pray for others or have been prayed for by others and have found it to change things? You could say it is just coincedence, but for everything? I highly doubt it. I have prayed for things and things have really changed because of it.

How can praying about someone make them worse?? I mean it is almost like a wish (except prayer is directed towards someone) and wishing for someone to get well will not have a detrimental effect.

 

Uhm, what does a fine-tuned universe and intelligent life have anything to do with a God?

For example, even a fined-tuned universe and intelligent life is capable of producing disasters, cluster-fuckups, monsters and stupid people.

So much for a fine tuned universe, intelligence and what you call God.

It is said that God made man in His image.
Therefore, if man is dumb, then, God is dumb and a little ugly on the side.

 

Yes, He made us in His image, He gave us the power and ability to do the best we can with ourselves. I have mentioned this before somewhere, that just because one person many not be as intelligent as the other, it doesn't mean that they don't have skills in other areas!

If you run out of logical arguement, please don't use it as an excuse to mock.

 

Well, of course. For example, a stupid Muslim Jihadist who proclaims the righteousness of his religion and his "love" of his God, uses his skill in other areas by blowing his stupid brain out, along with a couple hundred innocent bystanders.

This stupidity is not confined to the adherents of one faith alone, but is observed in other religions as well, including Christianity.

Calling out the stupidity of Muslim jihadist is not mocking.
On the other hand, those who defend religious institutions, organized religions that breed and promote these kinds of behaviour, are the ones who mock the very ideals that they pretend to uphold.

 

That I understand but you said nothing about this in the previous post, you said dumb - which is taken to mean intelligence! So, saying that if people are dumb it's because God is dumb. Which He clearly isn't as He created everything.

There are extremists everywhere, even outside of religion - animal rights for example. Just because they exist doesn't mean they represent the majority of a religion. I have never met anyone who spoke badly about anyone, or hated someone for not believing what they did. I haven't met everyone, but in my opinion it would be stupid to say that all religious people are stupid and evil based on a minority. But that's what ends up happening - it always comes back to people thinking they are better or more intelligent that people of faith - and that clearly is not the case.

 

Indeed, if He created everything, He created dumbness and evil...
If as you say, "He is everything" then He is both dumbness and evil.

You're words not mine.

 

You clearly don't know the Bible or indeed anything about the Christian faith. It is the same old atheist attempt to prove themselves right and that they are better! Not falling for it!

 

But perhaps, I beg to defer to someone else who was more knowledge of the Bible and Christianty and who was tied to the hip with the Catholic Church.

 

What a surprise! How many times has someone brought up a picture of Hitler in this forum! Especially when they need to get out of a hole they dug themselves into.

So they good are just forgotten right - oh wait the good Christians/ Muslims etc wouldn't make sense to atheists would they?

 

Oh, you mean, sheeple.

 

Yeah, I think this thread is coming to an end!

 

Thanks to this drug or should I say, this poison called religion. It's these dumb Christian sheeple types who don't think for themselves, and their equally dumb counterparts, the Muslim fanatics, is why this world of ours nowadays is so fucked up.

 

Most of the conflict in today's world is engineered. It's not the picture of chaos that it appears. There are very specific goals behind it.

Religion, or rather the religious, are being used to further an agenda called the New World Order.

These people intend to break the back of civilization as we know it. They will use your beliefs against you to do the dirty work, a massive world war to decrease the world population of anyone who could stand against them. The followers of Islam.

The survivors of this war will be united under a one world government.


x

 

So global pollution etc which is caused exclusively by industrial technology has nothing to do with the fucked up sate of the world? Or the greed and dishonesty of those who wield political power?

 

I think the world is abit bigger than the USA and the middle east.

The 'new world order' will very likely be dominated by China, whose poulation is neither christian nor muslim.

 

1. I have not seen it. Really, you can make evidence of any kind point to god if you try hard enough. But I don't think that is very convincing. Religion has been around a long time, and now we have advanced technology and detection devices for all sorts of things...shouldn't we have at least one rock-solid piece of evidence by now?

2. Yes, it's a policy, but if the burden of proof were on those trying to defend science and rationality, the world would be a strange place indeed. I don't mean to say that something being brought about by natural causes proves there god isn't involved, but it shows that god isn't necessary.

3. You may be right. But how else can we know? Isn't a person's religion of choice first and foremost a product of where they live? That's not because of genetic predisposition, it's because people pick up what they're raised on, familiar with, etc. They do not evaluate all the choices. I think if people did that, they would discover that they are all (or almost all) equally valid. I think that if were a god, and god were to be as described in the christian bible, then he wouldn't require blind faith. Blind faith is what you get from your upbringing, or when your disorganized and lousy way of life is suddenly made better by an organization like the church. If god were really to say "worship me or perish," he would give us some reason to do so other than our upbringing and a vague feeling that there might be something bigger out there.

4. An admirable stance.

 

This isn't one article in a paper. It is a large-scale, long-term, peer-reviewed study in a scientific journal. You would think that on that level, there would be SOME correlation if prayer were powerful. Read the article. It's interesting.

Yes, I think that when you pray, and what you pray for comes to be, it is coincidence. When that doesn't happen, you may pass it off as "oh, the lord had other plans" or "I wasn't doing it quite right or quite strong enough." That's how superstitious beliefs are built. If you give a pigeon a reward at random intervals, it will find some behavior that it thinks is causing that reward. When it does its thing and is rewarded, it is smug and satisfied at a job well done. When it does its thing and isn't, it thinks "well, I did it a little differently before," and it'll try variations until that reward comes. Eventually, you can have pigeons hopping on one foot and flapping their wings around because they think that it will get them a reward.

You have prayed for things and things have changed. Why do you think that it wouldn't have happened otherwise? How many times have you prayed and not gotten what you wanted?

And no, praying for people did not make them worse. The groups were randomly chosen, and one group turned out to be worse off. The prayers they received did not help them. Both when they knew they were being prayed for and when they didn't, they didn't do as well as those who weren't prayed for.

 

You may be looking in the wrong places. Have you tried deep meditation?

Necessary for what? At the moment, our only theory connecting relativity and quantum mechanics is Superstring, the source of all matter, energy, space and time. There is no empirical evidence for this, and not likely to be any in our lifetimes, but many scientists believe it because it's conceptually useful. Give this thing a mind, and you've got HIP.

We can't, for sure. If we accept evolutionary theory, there's no reason to expect that a creature geared to survival and reproduction would be prepared to know the ultimate meaning of its existence or the Universe's. In that light, I think we've done amazingly well.

 

I have done much research, not only on religion, but I know what studies are of a good standard. I have looked into religion and healthcare and from what I found there are an abundance of papers showing the benefit - so again you are basing your opinion in one study - have a look for the many many more that are out there -have a look it's interesting! I have spent three years looking at journals and the like so I know what are good and what are not.