What would you do?

Crying may be an emotion response, but it is something that can be controlled, and the inability to control it at certain times can be deemed as a sign of weakness. In general, women do seem to cry more, and over matters that are quite tribial at times. I was watching Wife Swap the other day; spoiled high society woman gets stuck in rural middle America and sees that the coffee pot still has cold coffee in it in the afternoon, so she starts crying. That's a sign of weakness. Moreover, women who see men cry do consider it a sign of weakness, regardless of what they say.

As far as women being held to the same standard as men, I find it odd that you would make such an argument, considering what you are. Feminists want to see women equally represented across the board (but have no problem when it comes to female dominated occupations, oddly enough) and want more women in the military and firefighting/police, regardless of whether they meet the same requirements as men. It's currently an issue in the city where I live; not enough women firefighters, and one of the few that there is is complaining about sexual harassment because certain kinds of magazines are being read at the old firehall.

 

Actually I found what he said to be quite honest and articulate, but as for you, well, do you honestly expect anyone to care about your snide comment about your ex-husband? It would appear that at the time he was extremely concerned about what was happening to you, but now that you've divorced him, you're bitter and resentful, and it's easy for you to simply mock him for how he behaved. Typical.

 

How would you know that "I" wouldn't make such a response? Or what type of response someone you don't know would make, how can YOU claim to know "what I am?" (Careful you may be treading personal attack waters, but of course you are "new" so you might not be aware of them, but you should read the agreement statement that you signed when you joined the site.......again.) I thought you were "new." Yeah, right, jimaan, er um, I mean iiajaam.

I made such a response because it is the way I feel. Firefighting depends on physical strength. If you can't carry someone out of a burning building, ect, you shouldn't be a fire fighter. There are physical tests for such jobs as it is a safety issue. But you are "new" here, so I'll give you a pass. LOL

Womyn cry more, in part because of much higher levels of prolactin. It is only seen as "weak" by some. Most see it as a sign of empathy or other positive emotional merits. I cry at Mr Rogers and AT&T commercials. So what?

 

never mind..................................................

 

then I think the standards for women should be upped. I know I can definitely do more than ZERO pull ups.

 

Crying is not something that needs to be "controlled". it needs to be released. That´s why it happens in the first place, man.
When I see anyone cry I don´t see it as weakness, but strength. Being strong enough to let go. Trying to "control" your emotions, to me, is seen as weakness. Because you are afraid of what will happen if you lose control.
With that said, I am very weak emotionally. You will not see me cry unless you are a stable constant in my life, because I´m afraid that if people who don´t know me see me cry, they won´t care about me.

 

Oh, I don't think that what I said is anywhere near being a "personal attack" but my guess is--being new here, I can't say for certain--that you're the type that tries to get people who disagree with you banned. Sorry, but such things don't bother me one bit, so go right ahead...

So what if women have more prolactin--that's no excuse. Everybody cries on occasion, when a friend or relative dies, for instance, but constantly crying over insignificant issues is really just counter-productive, and the inability to control oneself is therefore a sign of weakness. When you cry, your sense of what's going on around you is distorted, and once you lose track of what's occuring around you, then things go wrong. Moverover, I've found that certain people use crying as a deliberate means of manipulating other people; children do this constantly, and some of them don't stop doing this when they grow older because they know that they can sometimes still get what they want with by doing it.

 

In response to the original topic:
The army obviously changes people, especially the way that one thinks. Would your boyfriend have made a sexist comment before he joined the army? If not, I'd take it as a sign that the "brainwashing" has started to set in.

In partial response to the discussion about gender differences:
"In the Marine Corps (former Marine Sergeant here) the physical standards for men and women are very different. Men had to do a minimum of 3 pull ups, 60 sit ups, and a 3 mile run in 28 mins. Women had to do ZERO pull ups (they just have to hang from the bar for a specific amount of time)! I forget what they had to do for situps and the run though (it was a while ago). The weight standards are very different also. This is because MEN and WOMEN ARE VERY DIFFERENT. How can you argue that they are not?"

Women have greater strength in their lower body. Men have greater strength in their upper body. This is not to say that every woman has more strength in her lower body than every man (in his lower body), or that every man has greater strength is his upper body than every woman (in her upper body). But yes, there are biological differences.

 

For combat soldiers, I think upper body strength is key to being an effective soldier.

 

I'd just use the age-old phrase "Let's see you bleed for five days, or give birth to a child and live through it."

 

You're sort of right... upper body strength USED to be crucial for combat. Because of current technology, this difference is now insignificant. In hand-to-hand combat, for example, soldiers had to use heavy weapons... these weapons are now lighter, though. Certain advances in technology have made physical strength far less pertinent (especially where gender roles are concerned).

The real issue isn't about strength, it's about the masculinity men find in war. Men (many, anyway.. I'm speaking in terms of the gender stereotype... especially those interested in combat) link their masculine identity with warfare. They need to supress their emotions (namely fear and grief) in warfare... whereas emotional expression is linked with the female gender stereotype. When the men fail, they're humiliated, almost in a way that strips them of their masculine identity. In war, masculinity is linked with things like pride, honor, killing, and risk-taking. If men find a strong sense of perpetuating their masculinity through warfare, then women in combat threatens that for them. Women have been labled sweet and vulnerable, and are stereotyped as nurses, camp followers, etc... and men would not like to think a "lowly" woman is capable of doing his job. Mentally and physically, women in the past (most notably the two world wars) who have performed in combat (which I think is only 1% of those who have fought in combat throughout the majority of wars in history) have done enqually well as the men. Women are also stereotyped as being submissive, so if a woman fulfills this stereotype while training, she has the benefit of submitting to discipline. Most of the men and women I know are well-balanced individuals, and neither group comes across as markedly dominant or submissive. Then again, the majority of people I know are "civilians." Self-sacrifice is another gender stereotype linked to women that would benefit them in warfare.



Female guerrillas, women in combat by the Red Army, and female European resistance networks, all demonstrate that women can successfully serve in offensive land operations. In the air, during 1942-5, twelve percent of the Red Air Force’s fighter pilots, including several aces, were women.

 

Children cry, for the most part because THEY have more prolactin than adult men. Testosterone negates the effects of prolactin, and people with more prolactin cry more easily. As boys go into puberty, they make more testosterone, less prolactin, and it is harder for them to cry. Many men may "mist" or tear, but rarely or infrequently cry streaming tears (pain tears are different and are controlled by different hormones than emotional tears, men in pain do often cry streaming tears.)

Prolactin has a LOT to do with how easily people cry. Pregnant and lactating womyn (who have prolactin levels an order of magnitude higher than even non pregnant or lactating womyn) cry VERY easily. Crying isn't SOLEY dependent on this hormone, but does have a lot to do with it.

Babies and children cry when they need something, they don't mostly cry to "manipulate" people. It is sad when people think babies are being "manipulative" when they cry, and leads to misunderstanding of the workings of the mind of a child.

 

I'm not saying that babies are being manipulative, I'm talking about certain adults.

Why do feminists always make excuses for women (and sometimes children)?

 

This kind of argument is really useless, especially considering the fact that few women probably really stop and think what it's like to be a man before they hurl criticisms. Sorry, but the fact that "bleed" and are biologically predisposed to having babies, is not the fault of men, nor is it an excuse to be exempt from criticism for behavioural short-comings.

Also, if you think that men have no right criticizing women about their behaviour because they don't know what it's like to be a women, then where in the hell do you get the idea that it's okay for woman to do so???

 

are you saying that most women do this?

That cannot be said for everyone.

how? please explain.

No one wants to cry, we all want to be happy. Some have developed habits such as crying to get what they want because other methods have failed in the past and that is the best way they know how. A habit like that is a learned thing. Crying is usually a last resort because it does not feel good.

 

You're argument is inaccurate, that's why. Saying crying makes you weak is an inaccurate statement. There are biological reasons why it is easier for some people to cry than others, and that has nothing to do with emotional strength or weakness.

My aunt has been in the hospital for months after a car crash. She has had surgeries gone bad. She has had terrible infections. She has been told by various docters that she may or may not survive. This is a time where most people would just give up, but she has not. Most people would lose faith, but she has not. She's confident and enthusiastic. Would you call this a weak person?

What if I were to tell you that she cries during sad movies? That suddenly makes her weak? That's pretty immature thinking.

 

Look at it this way:

You are in a trench or foxhole(what have you) constant enemy fire/grenades exploding around, people dying next to you, blood/limbs falling everywhere. People screaming in pain and dying next to you. Your CO orders a response to it, you must exit the hole and fire, you have a 1% chance of living. I GUARANTEE you that any woman would break down in this situation and start crying, refusing to go through with the order. Men are born more "equipped" if you will to handle a larger load to their emotions. This is why women break down in less than horrific situations. Women initially think with emotions, men do not.

I've seen in coverage of war operations in Iraq of women who are logistics drivers, not even in combat situations crying because they are afraid of having shots fired at them. They say they didn't join for that. The men in close combat situations merely brush off enemy fire as part of their job, and say "bring it on" and respond in kind after being shot at.

Just my $.02

 

Tell your nasty story to the 12 yr old girl in Russia who had a chance to escape the terrorists but chose to go back and help her 8 yr. old sister. During the moments of shots being fired, blood and limbs flying, bombs going off and her teacher dying right in front of her this 12 yr. old girl pulled her sister out a window and to safety.
Screw you.
The reason why some women are unable to act the way of the army in those situations in Iraq is because the Iraq war is WRONG and women have a CONSCIENCE.
I bet you have never seen a foxhole from the safety of your fancy laptop that your parents bought you from their Bush tax cut.
B

 

As with everything there are exceptions to the rule. I feel this would be the case with family members. And as for the bush tax cut...I live in Canada, and I do not own a laptop and never have plus my parents are dead and have been for a long time. I will most likely see this scene one day and am prepared for it because I am joining the army here then transferring to the British Forces.

And the whole Iraq war being wrong, I totally agree with you.

 

The exception is the rule, buddy... and I'm no psychic but I was mad and hoping to get a hit and think you would have a lot in common with that type who form an opinion, call it a rule, and have never even experienced the situation first-hand.
I have never been in combat but I saved my husband's life when he was falling off a waterfall, this was before he was my husband. I have been in protests where there were shots fired and acted cooly while tears flowed. Care to share a machismo event in your life?
Why is it when people get shown wrong they always say, "well of course, there's always an exception"