What seperates us from the animals?

Discussion in 'Philosophy and Religion' started by Lostthoughts, Jul 2, 2010.

  1. Emanresu

    Emanresu Member

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    Attempts to explain the evolution of language in terms of changes in breathing apparatus or the spinal column or the skull are woefully inadequate. Firstly a morphological change which provides the physical possibility of language centers evolving is a far cry from the changes which actually bring about those structures. The speech centers of the brain consist of millions of neurons arranged in complex ways. The idea that increasing brain capacity automatically results in such patterns is absurd, it is like saying if I increase the capacity of my computer case it will automatically contain complex software.

    Furthermore such explanations only assert that those morphological changes allowed for the development of language, with absolutely no statement about the relationship between those morphological changes and the complex neural circuits involved in language.

    There is no law that says "the frontal cortex must process language." Any part of the brain that processes language does so because it is precisely wired to do so, not because it is large and located more rostrally than other parts of the brain.

    And again, grammar doesn't fossilize, so any account of the origin of language cannot rely on the fossils.

    Also I agree with thedope: Without the ability to communicate abstract ideas it would not be possible to create and harness the technologies we have.
     
  2. guerillabedlam

    guerillabedlam _|=|-|=|_

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    I understood the gist of what's andallthatstocome was saying, if you don't perhaps your Broca's area is not processing correctly. You have supplied no better explanation although you have suggested I read this book instead, its certainly not a complete and thorough explanation to say bipedalism has lead to advanced language but from what I know it is a necessary one.

    A better metaphor is installing a more efficient hard drive, the size of the computer case is somewhat irrelevant.

    You seem to read what you want to read and still have not even answered my question on what is another vertical skeletal bipedal animal? (If you don't plan to respond to this question please do not respond to the rest of the post, k thanks )
     
  3. thedope

    thedope glad attention Lifetime Supporter

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    I thought I had posted penguins but I guess not.
     
  4. guerillabedlam

    guerillabedlam _|=|-|=|_

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    Ok, penguins are rather intelligent creatures among birds are they not?

    I don't really know any close relatives of penguins tbh so its somewhat of a genuine question...
     
  5. Oz!

    Oz! Hip Forums Supporter HipForums Supporter

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    the ability to lick their own genitals ... humans wouldn't have been a fraction as inventive or philosophical if they could join rover on the fireside rug in a lick fest every night
     
  6. Emanresu

    Emanresu Member

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    Fine I will use your analogy. Saying adaptations for bipedalism resulted in language abilities is like saying if you were to install a new hard drive in your computer that it would automatically generate its own complex software. That is just as absurd as my original analogy, and it is analogous to saying that language is a byproduct of the adaptations relating directly to bipedalism.

    I don't see why I should provide another "vertical skeletal bipedal animal" as my argument doesn't rest on this. I never doubted that adaptations to bipedalism played a role in creating the physical possibility of spoken language. It seems almost like you are claiming that grammar is an epiphenomenon of possessing a vertical skeletal system, a claim that cannot be grounded in what is known about genetics or language.

    The evolution of grammatical vocalization was probably driven at first by pressures relating to predation, and later relating to group size and social demands. Language is a specific solution to specific problems. It is so complex and costly that it must have evolved directly, not as a byproduct. Skeletal changes, changes in brain size, and adaptations relating to breathing cannot account for the acquisition of an infinitely combinatorial grammatical system.
     
  7. guerillabedlam

    guerillabedlam _|=|-|=|_

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    You still didnt answer the question? The 3 mammals we have listed as the smartest language wise: humans, dolphins, whales all have straight skeletal structures, so you and your 'probably' unsound grammatical hypothesis can shove it. I consider it about maybe on par because I'm kind :) but probably less plausible than andallthatstocome explanation. Feel free to keep writing tho, I'm not paying attention to half of what you are saying anymore as you seem to not be able to extend the same courtesy to me.
     
  8. Deranged

    Deranged Senor Member

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    usually a fence or some sort of cage. sometimes a moat or a cement wall. really depends on which zoo you go to
     
  9. Frogfoot

    Frogfoot Member

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    What?


    That was a joke... funny or not...

    I do agree that language is the real answer. Well said, and with a remarkable conciseness! Language makes it more a difference of degree than of kind. However much one rationalizes it, all bloody-like a la Descartes, or without a thought like sitting down to a happy meal meal, the difference is only skin deep. That's what I was thinking of... but yeah, language.
     
  10. Sir-.-'nOOBalloT

    Sir-.-'nOOBalloT Member

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  11. thedope

    thedope glad attention Lifetime Supporter

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    I see. Let me rephrase, teeheee.
     
  12. Emanresu

    Emanresu Member

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    All I can say to that, guerillabedlam, is that if you think that any statement about the skeletal structure can explain the evolution of infinitely combinatorial grammar then you obviously don't know much about evolution or language (of course you admitted this yourself by admitting that your ideas came from an introductory anthropology class).

    You can stick with your incoherent ideas from anthropology 101 but I will stick with the hypothesis that is accepted by virtually every evolutionary biologist, every evolutionary psychologist, and most linguists which is that grammar evolved as a direct adaptation. This is the position you will find entertained by Richard Dawkins, Steven Pinker, David Buss, John Toolby, Leeda Cosmides, Robert Trivers, and virtually every competent authority. You don't have to believe me, you can read it in their books. Even the minority of experts who disagree do not adopt your epiphenomenon argument, they at least are aware that grammar is too complex to arise from increasing brain size.

    It's funny because I knew from the start that your hypothesis was wrong, I just wanted to see if you could actually provide any account of the genetic relationships involved or any detailed analysis of the fossil record relating to grammar, which you couldn't.
     
  13. guerillabedlam

    guerillabedlam _|=|-|=|_

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    And you still are saying my argument is brain size, are you retarded? You're not even responding to my points and are falsely attributing some of the arguments that andallthatstocome made to me.
     
  14. tikoo

    tikoo Senior Member

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    language is shared among the animals , and it's
    a language of basic thought and it could be
    represented by symbols . humans can represent
    the language with an art of symbols .

    to what degree one animal or another is adept at thinking ?
    this is not a respectful relationship to make .
     
  15. thedope

    thedope glad attention Lifetime Supporter

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    What is animal language for past or future?
     
  16. LoneDeranger

    LoneDeranger Trying to pay attention.

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    Before.

    New sun.
     
  17. thedope

    thedope glad attention Lifetime Supporter

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    Those are human words dr doolittle.
     
  18. LoneDeranger

    LoneDeranger Trying to pay attention.

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    I had to translate them into something you'd have a chance of understanding.
     
  19. themnax

    themnax Senior Member

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    aside from a lot of collectively egotistical delusions, the principal distinction of the human species from other life form we share our planet with, is the degree of drive we have to express ourselves creatively. this has resulted in our so surrounding ourselves by our own artifacts, as to be able to convince ourselves that we are somehow qualitatively different in some significant way.

    many beliefs, including the most dominant, seem to promote this perception of a qualitative difference. there definition of this difference being highly metaphorical.

    i'm not so sure there's really such a qualitative difference, rather then a merely quantitative degree of intelligence, which given time, and our absence, should we chose not to stop destroying ourselves, might well evolve into our replacement every bit as capable and "humane" if not more so, as ourselves.
     
  20. tikoo

    tikoo Senior Member

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    memory , an element of natural inyelligence .
     

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