What is "the right of the people to keep and bear arms"?

Tell that to the Iraqis. They don't have tanks or missiles or jets or helicopters, but they are putting up a hell of a fight against the most technologically advanced military in the history of the world with just their AK-47s, a few RPGs and some homemade bombs. It's not that I could fend off an army by myself, but the millions of Americans who own guns would have a damn good chance.

You can live in fantasy utopialand if you want, hopefully it won't get you killed, but I am living on this planet called Earth, and it's crawling with a bunch of creatures called humans who fought their way out of the swamps with pointy sticks, now they have guns. Guns exist. Guns will always exist, and as long as other people whose intentions and respect for human life could be lacking own them, I will too. I am not a murderer, or a theif, or any sort of bad guy, nor are 99% of gun owners, so why should we not be able to defend ourselves with modern weapons if we are attacked?

If you can come up with a way to remove ALL guns from the face of the earth forever, then I will happily give up mine. The world is like the African savanna, there are lions out there, and as long as there are I don't want to be a helpless gazelle. Perhaps the lions will lose their teeth, but until then I will strive to be like an elephant, a basically peaceful creature, but perfectly capable of stomping the hell out of a lion if need be.

 

Actually, i remember a couple of years ago some guy in japan went nuts and went to an elementary school with a couple of kitchen knives, he murdered a bunch of kids and a couple of teachers. Shit happens.

People murder each other with kitchen knives, baseball bats, tire irons, hammers, and their bare hands and feet all the time, and if you took away those things they would just find something else to murder each other with. People were murdering each other long before guns were invented.

 

Thr problem is that the guns that exist today are not being used in an american insurgency.

They are being used to kill and harm other citizens.

I have yet to see the positive outweigh the negative in u.s. gun control policy.

The majority of crimes involving guns are done with guns obtained legally.

Do we sacrifice thousands of live today in order to prepare for an event that might never happen?

 

Are you denying that guns have made killing easier, quicker, and more effective?

There is a good reason why guns are a primary weapon of choice.

 

Not had time to read the whole thread, but just wanted too put a UK perspective on this.

I would suggest that most people outside the US think thats its crazy that a civilian is actually allowed to own a handgun. Obviously, its all you've ever known (guns being legal) so its probably harder to see it any other way.

Bearing in mind most police forces in the western world dont even carry guns, crime figures in the US are way higher than anywhere else in the world. Britain has a far lower crime rate than the states and our police carry nothing but a bit of a stick, why is this?

Also, the number of people killed by guncrime the US (percentage wise) is way way higher than anywhere else in the civilised world, is this a coincidence?

Murders may be caused by other objects/actions too but there must be many thousands of murders that wouldnt have happened in America if guns were illegal. How many heated domestic arguments must there have been where someone got pissed off and shot someone in the heat of the moment? Had the gun not have been there it may have just resulted in a punch being thrown or whatever.

An ordinary civilian has no need whatsoever for a gun, and no right to decide whether another human has the right to live or not. I mean, I presume theres no kind of pscychology tests required to get a gun? If not it means that any kind of fuckwit can get hold of one. I'm just trying to picture some of the fucking idiots i see walking around on a daily basis and it scares me to think that if they were legal over here, they could all be carrying a fucking gun!!

Shotguns for farmers/hunters etc. are legal which is reasonable due to the nature of their work, other than that they should be illegal.

I wonder how many guns that are unaccounted for are hanging around in America, must be thousands. I can't remember exact figures so i wont quote any but check out the gun crime stats, they're fucking scary and if even one life was saved with guns being illegal (it could be your mom or dad eho ngot killed etc) then its got to be good. In reality, I suspect its several thousand lives

 

Just a quick point, if the US ot to s=the stage where it was attacked to the stage where civilians were having to defend their country with their own gun, I think we would all be fucked, cos it wouldnt be any other country invading it'd have to be a different planet! Modern warfare wouldn't allow that to happen, battlefields of old dont exist as in the past, itsa all missiles and nukes etc. And what country (other than using terrorism) is going to invade fucking America?!?!?!?!? Costa Rica or someone??

 

China, but also, there's revolution and civil war.

 

So, Shane.... basically you're saying you are pro-big government and anti-2nd amendment? Is that safe to assume? You also believe that people shouldn't have the right to defend themselves if their lives, or their family's lives, are in danger?

Yeah, guns are used to kill people -- I think we have that understood. Guns are also used for sport and hunting as well. If every person that owned a gun was a cold-blooded killer, well... I think a lot of us would already be dead.

I can't think of anything good to come out of gun control. Every time any major gun legislation is passed, the black market becomes flooded with illegal guns. No matter how much bogus legislation is passed, if a person wants a gun for reasons of ill-intent, they will find a way to obtain one.

The idea that there is a gun problem in this country, outside of urbanized areas, is blasphemous. Anyone who buys into that nonsense is buying right into the hands of the socialistic, fascistic, big-government agenda. Yes, there is a lot of gang-related deaths at the hands of ruthless people with guns everyday. But no matter how much gun control is passed, that is never going to change. It hasn't worked yet, so what makes you think it ever will?

Every major city across America is saturated with guns, and those guns are not going to be going away anytime soon, unless of course the feds decide to make a door-to-door bust of every house in every major city across America.

The only purpose gun control serves is to take away the constitutional-granted rights from law-abiding citizens, and placing more power in the hands of the already badly corrupt federal government.

The idea that gun control is going to stop people from murdering others with guns is incredibly naive and gullible.

 

Actually, two things Rat. First Michael Moore, said as I recall that guns aren't to blame for the problem with violence that we have here in America. I believe he went into this in Bowling for Columbine, when he visited Canada and showed how many people up there have guns, yet not such violence that we have here. So, regardless of how you feel about him (hey I'm not a big fan of him either) I do believe that this point is not exactly accurate. Furthermore, the reason I'm on the fence about this issue is because I do agree with the fact that there are some other countries out there that allow for citizens to have weapons, or hunting gear, yet they still don't run around killing each other like idiots. I haven't the explanation for this or our solution. If anyone were allowed to, by the government (because I think that they won't allow the proper research to be done) then we could find out what is wrong with this country and why we resort to such extreme measures. I think that perhaps we would find out that the reason might not be guns at all, but rather many other social factors.



Also, I do believe that it is in the works to pass laws levying a tax on unhealthy foods, such as McDonalds, etc. I have absolutely no idea why the hell it has taken so long for such action to be taken, but I hope it happens sooner than later. But I'm confused though, you want the government to tell you what you can or cannot eat, but not if you can have a deadly weapon? And you want less government right? I mean most people who eat slop and die, know that they are going to die from eating slop. Someone who is accidentally shot, or even purposely shot for doing absolutely nothing wrong, except being in the wrong place at the wrong time, don't usually know it is coming. I guess if they did, they'd duck or something.

And there is "car control" as well. You have to pass a test in order to be able to drive, and there are laws which you have to follow. It seems easier to obtain a gun, than it does to be allowed to drive a car. And yes, I know that none of this would make a difference if someone was hell bent on killing someone with a car or with a gun, I'm just making a point is all.


It is still all a matter of common sense, no matter how you look at it. Unfortunately, I'm afraid this country for the most part, lacks that these days. So until we can prove that we really are intelligent human beings capable of taking care of ourselves, and having the responsiblilties of carrying weapons, I imagine the government is going to have to protect those of us who don't want guns and who don't want to live in fear of being shot by some asshole.



On another note, did anyone hear about the pregnant woman who was sitting in her car at her own house who was shot by a stray bullet from someone hunting near by? They haven't caught the guy. The woman is "ok" as is the baby, but she has to get major speech therapy. OPPPs, that wasn't bambi. it was your neighbor. The man never came forward either. Coward with a gun. Just what we need more of.

I know it might not seem like it, but I'm still on the fence about this issue. I really am not against people having rights, it is just that with those rights comes responsibility and these days no one wants to be held accountable for anything. It's always someone else's fault.

 

First of all, the gun issue in America is largely a cultural/socio-economic one.

Comparing America to Canada, I think, is silly. For one, Canada has a much smaller population than America, and much less urban area.

The thing is, most of the violence that occurs in America occurs in urban areas. Gee, I wonder how come Moore didn't touch on this in his so-called "documentary." Instead, he opted to focus on militia grits and the NRA as being the harbingers of all gun violence. Frankly, I don't hear of that many rednecks opening fire on each other very often. But I hear about gang members shooting and killing other gang members nearly every day.

The point is, no matter how much gun control legislation you pass, there is always going to be a lot of violence in urban America, and urban America is really what gives America its bad rap when it comes to guns, as urban America is where 95% of all gun violence occurs.

Again, it's largely a cultural/socio-economic issue.

How often do you hear of people outside of large urban areas being killed with guns? Not very often. It happens, but not very often. More people die from drunk drivers.

Well, I do believe that people should be able to eat what they want. But there should at least be a warning. I think McDonalds' products should come with a warning, like cigarettes, so that the people who are too dumb to realize that what they are eating is literally deadly, might actually think twice before eating that crap again.

But bad food and an unhealthy lifestyle STILL kills more people every year (and every day) than guns. This is why I think the issue of guns is really overrated when you look at all the other dangers one is surrounded by on a daily basis.

Well, frankly, I trust a career criminal more than I trust the criminals that make up our federal government. But that's just me. I don't trust the government to protect me in the very least, and neither do a lot of people. This is why I believe people have every right to own guns if they choose. Most people who own guns are not criminals, nor should they be treated as criminals.

So what! This is an isolated incident! I still don't see why logical, law-abiding citizens should have to be punished because of other people's stupidity. Regardless if there is gun control, there will still be hunters, thus the same potential for that exact same thing to happen again.

That woman could have been in her car and slammed into by a drunk driver, killing both the woman and her unborn baby. Yet, other than for age, there are no restrictions being placed on people's right to purchase and consume alcohol.

People aren't restricted from drinking because of other people's poor-judgment. Yet, many gun owners who have never been charged with a crime in their lives have to have their 2nd amendment rights obstructed or taken away because of a few bozos with no conscience, common-sense and/or brains.

THAT is totally nonsensical!

 

Yes, I believe that is what I stated that there are other social factors and not just the fact that we have guns. I'm sorry that you need more clarification, I was agreeing with you. Perhaps you just like to argue? I as well. But you can't argue with me if I am saying the same thing you are. Unless you are very creative. My question now is, are you against urban america now? So we should all live in the suburbs? Or on farms? News flash. Suburbia ain't as special as it used to be. Is that due to the higher crime rate in urban America as well? I'm not a sociologist so I haven't all of the statistics here in front of me. But I live in the suburbs. A quaint little town in a quaint little state. There is only one city here and I'm no where near it. As a matter of fact, I would say that this state is mostly rednecks, as you affectionately refer to them as. And apparently these rednecks got into a fight the other night and some idiot whipped out a gun and shot some teenage kid. Over something stupid I'm sure. But my point is, it is not just happening in the big bad city you keep describing. Violence is everywhere. I'm not saying that gun control can make any difference, I was again merely pointing out that the problem is not confined to a few cities. There are people in poverty in the city, they come to the nice rich neighborhoods in the suburbs to rob people, so they can have things too, or sell them for crack I don't know what they do. Like I've stated, perhaps the answer isn't in gun control, but making sure everyone is taking care of on a social level.

Ok, I'm going to try my best not to sound pretentious here, but exactly how stupid does one have to be to not know that McDonald's is bad for your health? I am going to school to become a personal trainer and a nutritionist, so perhaps I have a little more knowledge than common folk on this topic, but we have been given warnings for years... people do not heed the warnings. Just like stupid people still smoke and sue tobacco companies! I have spoken to people who are afraid to eat bananas because of the "high carbs", but think that it is perfectly normal to eat a Big Mac! How many people do you know have gotten fat off of bananas? This is what I mean about the common sense that people lack! It is my opinion that if you honestly are too stupid to realize that McDonald's is not good for you, then you should be locked away in a mental institution. I mean what kind of warning do you expect them to put on the food? The nutrition information is available if anyone cares, but if you are the point where you care what is in your fast food, you will most likely not be eating there to begin with. Sigh, I do agree the issue of guns is overrated. But putting warnings on everything is pretty silly in my opinion. And I don't know because I've never owned a gun or purchased one, but does it come with a warning that says if you are an idiot and you point this at people and pull the trigger they will die? Because it would appear to me that people are unaware of that fact.

Again I agree. Not sure what exactly we are arguing about anymore... I don't trust the government too much, and I don't think that making laws regarding certain types of guns (specific hunting rifles) is going to help, but then again some laws might help those out there who lack the common sense needed in certain instances. You know those idiots in line at McDonald's.

If that woman had been hit by a drunk driver, he would be arrested and in jail by now. They would have not stopped the investigation. It would have been all over national news if some preggo lady had gotten all smashed up by a drunk driver just like the Lacy Peterson crap. But again because of who runs the show, nothing was done or said about this because we can't have bad publicity about guns and their dangers and irresponsible users who don't come forward now could we? That would make all gun owners look bad now wouldn't it, not just this dumb fuck with a shitty shot. But alas, so what. I wasn't really trying to make a point with this one, just wondering if anyone else heard about it is all. Even the woman who was shot though said she was not against guns, just wanted to pass a law so people couldn't hunt so close to her neighborhood. Gee again with the common sense issue.

And again Rat, I never once said that anyone's rights should be taken away. I told you I am on the fence about this. I can see both sides of the arguement. I am strongly against guns, I hate them and don't want to be near them, and honestly do not see how they are necessary(then again I don't like hunting either) but I'm also strongly against changing ammendments and the constitution to take rights away.

LOL honestly I have no idea why I even stumbled into this thread since I really don't care either way. Guess I'll be on my merry way now.

 

Too bad.

I don't know what the answer is to that either. I think to myself, people who eat that should be punished with bad health! But then I know that we all pay a price when our nation is obese. Also, who doesn't know people who eat this way? People I care about do. So, education is a good idea, also availability of healthy alternatives, especially in schools.

Yep. People should consider fast food, etc. "deadly", but people are so conditioned that they don't even recognise the danger.

 

I look at it the same way that I look at the "war on drugs". I don't do any drugs. I don't even drink anymore, maybe wine now and then. But, I am completely for legalizing every drug. Since drugs have been made illegal, there are more of them.
Anyways, I couldn't care less what drugs people do. How is it anyone's business, much less the government's. I should be able to do anything I want to my own body. We are not even in complete control of our own bodies anymore, that is insane when you think about it.

 

Green,
This is a very good to hear. I mean I'm not really down with the drug scene, but to each his own I suppose. I still believe that there are alternatives, to both drugs and shooting people (or robbing them or what have you) and animals(considering it is not necessary to hunt because animals are raised to feed us therefore either stop raising them full of deadly hormones to make money or else stop hunting).

 

Dead Bear I know you don't like hunting, but remember hunting helps out the ecosystems as well, as it prevents over population of certain species of animals. Those animals would eventually starve to death; which is a lot less humane than hunting during certain times of the year. Peace.

 

Yes, Jozak I see your point. So why not let everyone hunt for meat if they choose to eat it and shut down the "animal factories"? I mean if we need to hunt so bad because of over population, then why do we have to make cows and chickens and force them to live in deplorable conditions which can potentially make us humans ill. I mean we could just let all animals be natural and wild and we could be natural and wild and if we wanted to eat one, I guess we could hunt it. Wouldn't be as easy as going to the local grocery store. See it isn't the hunting that I'm against, it is how we use and abuse animals. I guess if you are that hungry and you can't make it to the market, you could go out back and shoot something for dinner. Like I said I do completely see your point, but I completely disagree, it is not necessary to hunt. It is a sport to most. I don't know of too many people who rely on that as their sole source of nutrition.

 

It is patently obvious that that provision in the Constitution was intended for a time when a citizen's militia was a viable and relevant need and reality. It means, simply, that Americans have the right to own a gun to ptotect their home, property and nation against invasion and a tyrannical government.

The problem is there is no chance of protecting against a tyrannical government any more... we have one, and it has weapons that could vaporize a million people an hour and still have time for pizza. We are the most armed nation on earth, with one of the highest murder rates. As Bowling for Columbine demonstrates, the problem is not the amount of guns, but the violent nature of American society.

I hate guns. I had a handgun that I inherited from my dad, a 9mm glock, I got rid of it. But I would not take away people's guns, that's the first thing a fascist government does. But I would not allow assault rifles either. I think people have the right to have a handgun and a rifle to protect themselves. That's it.

It is a shame that the NRA and other organizations like The Second Ammendment Foundation (Allen Gotleib's group) AKA The Citizens Commitee for the Right to Bear Arms are becoming political tools fore the right wing in this country. Responsible and sensible gun owners have little place to turn to.

Peace through superior higher-power!

 

I will never understand why anyone would enjoy killiing an animal. I am vegan. I don;t like killing anything, and therev is not enough game to support hardly anyone left.Hunting is good for the species? Only a few. Most are doomed by encroaching civilization anyway. If you want to sport, play football or archery.

Peace, V

 

Once again I have to erase the misinformation shamelessly peddled by TV news. "Assault rifles" have been illegal in the US since 1934. The guns regulated by the so called "Assaul rifle ban" only look like their full auto versions. They are semi-auto, which means they only fire one round for every pull of the trigger, and many hunting rifles are semi-auto. Contrary to popular ignorance, it would take an experienced gunsmith to convert the weapon to full-auto by rebuilding most of the bolt mechanism. Converting a semi-auto rifle to full-auto would be comparable to converting a 2 wheel drive car to 4 wheel drive as far as the work, tools and experience that would be required.

Also, any claims that full auto weapons are legal anywhere by the US are false. The law that banned full-auto weapons in 1934 is a federal law. The only weapons permissible are "curio and relic" firearms, antiques, and the license required to own one is expensive and hard to get.

The more you know... the more politicians and news anchors piss you off.

 

Hunting really has little to do with the constitutional right to bear arms....


At the same time however, in my home state though a half million people go deer hunting each year, there have still gotten to be so many deer that the DNR is hiring professional sharp-shooters to reduce the size of the deer herd.

There are so many deer that they are beginning to get diseases, some of those diseases are communicable to cattle, and many of the diseases are fatal.