What is the Christian Conservatives Problem with the term 'Holiday Tree'?

I know it's sad really. Because we have more people on this planet who hold on to a belief that has not been proven. I'm a seeing is believing kinda guy myself. I know all the Christians are gonna try to tell me that you don't have to see to believe, well I've given the big man upstairs 18 years to show up, and he hasn't done anything for me. I'm really not an ignorant person either. I've tried hard to believe, but I've felt nothing, and I really wish that everybody else would stop denying it. They say they've heard God, but aren't they really just talking to themselves? Isn't Prayer just talking to yourself? There really isn't a response that comes with it is there?

 

well, the fact that such a huge number of people have adopted the rtee as a symbol of christmas sorta means that there is "such thing" as a christmas tree, no matter how it came about. like the "easter bunny." lol. how something comes to be associated with a particular concept is secondary to the power of the symbol.

 

I think that renaming the christmas tree, the holiday tree destroys our right to celebrate our religious traditions. Each to their own, as long as you don't shit on each other is what i say.

 

But when these christian fundies get all pissed off and self-righteous when people say "Happy Holidays" in an attempt to include EVERYONE, that's OK?

They are perfectly welcome to celebrate christmas, but when they insist that Christmas be treated as the ONLY holiday celebrated at this time of the year, and that THEIR holiday is the "reason for the season", they cross the very line you are talking about, by denying OTHERS the right to celebrate, and shitting on OTHER beliefs.

 

I know what you mean, its like they wan't to wipe every other cultural belief off the face of the planet. Still, I still don't see any reason why each individual, or even majority of individuals can't choose to celebrate whatever religious celebration they like, even christian celebrations. I wish Ghandi was here to sort the mess out.

 

how does keeping christmas tree christmas tree deny them or shit on other peoples beliefs?

 

It doesn't, when said tree is in their OWN HOMES.

When they insist that trees displayed in the public square be called "christmas trees", or call for a boycott of stores that greet shoppers with "Happy Holidays" rather than "Merry Christmas", they are demanding that Christian beliefs be promoted above all others, which is unacceptable outside of a theocracy.

 

i definitely agree that peple should be allowed to say whatever they want to say. if i'm working in a store and wanna say happy holidays or merry christmas, i should be able to say either. and my coworkers should have their right to do the same. i think fundies flipping out over supposed attacks on their faith and way of life are a desperate last gasp at the irrelevancy of their own faith. a scrambling attempt to hold on to something that many people within their own groups don't understand very well. i mean, your average christian has a very loose and fragile understanding of their own religion.

 

What makes you so sure that solstice celebrations wouldn't be as popular as they ever were if Xtianity never came along to suppress and co-opt the practices?

The solstices and equinoxes were celebrated for millenia before the birth of Jesus, so why would the celebrations have died out on their own, as opposed to being actively killed off?

At any rate, the celebration of the solstice is the ONLY holiday at this time of year that is tied to an ACTUAL, VERIFIABLE, ONGOING event.

 

whoa, is that fascism i sense?

Anyone can boycott a store for any reason they want. That is their right, that is democratic.

How is calling a christmas tree a christmas tree promoting christianity over say islam or judaism? It is not like we're saying only christmas trees can be displayed, it is not like we are saying menorahs must be called christmas candles.

Christians have the right to speak out against things they don't agree with, especially when they believe that the state is insulting their religion. That is how democracy works. Do you believe that christians shouldn't have the right to seek redress?

There is NOTHING in the constitution saying a christmas tree cant be called a christmas tree. Show me a court case saying christmas trees are unconstitutional. Can you?

 

Oh, I don't know, maybe things like the inquisition and the crusades, where followers of the old religions who refused to convert to Xtianity were killed outright?

Or the European and American "witch hunts", where anyone even SUSPECTED of things like "nature worship" was imprisoned or incarcerated?

After a generation or 2 of active oppression of non-christian practices, the "old ways" started to die out because they were largely oral traditions, passed from person to person, without a central authority or body of "scripture" to help perpetuate them.

 

Absolutely. You have the absolute right to be a petty, bigoted, self-righteous twit any time you want. And the rest of us have the right to call you on it....

Because, as has been stated countless times in this thread, the tree is NOT exclusively a symbol of christmas. It is also a symbol of traditional pagan practices, as well as a general secular symbol in modern culture. If you want an exclusively Christian symbol, stick with a nativity scene, as the Jews have a menorah, a specifically Jewish symbol.

Defining a tree as a specifically Christian symbol disrespects it's origins, as well as it's current meaning.

 

good to see your mature

A nativity has been ruled unconstitutional in many states/cities because it violates the separation of church and state. A menorah, for some reason doesn't.

A Christmas tree with its decoarations IS uniquely christian. Do i need to repost the wikipedia thing for the 100th time showing that the modern custom does NOT come from pagans? Yes, other religions use trees during winter festivities, but the decorations make it uniquely christian.

Read above.

Again, who is asking for exclusive access? I'd be MORE than happy with having a christmas tree, a menorah, an islamic crescent and a 'holiday tree' displayed in the same area.

How is it insulting? Because it is depriving the recognition of a christmas tree as a christmas tree. Read my comments above about the christmas deocrations.

again, who is about exclusion? I'm asking for equal access.

atleast we agree on something

You can say that we want exclusive access, but that doesn't make it the case.

We are not asking that only christmas trees be displayed.

So stop saying we are. Y

i agree. It is the anti christian contingent in this thread that want to deny christians the right to display their symbols along with others.

 

See the earlier post discussing the possible origins of "Santa Claus" as a Siberian shaman, with the red and white clothing taken from the colors of the Amanita Muscaria mushroom.

Then have a look here:

http://www.iamawitch.com/article.php?story=20051115102159808
http://www.ruyasonic.com/winter_solstice_festival.htm

or read this book:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0786402466/104-5399640-4847152?v=glance&n=283155

 

Can you show me a case where a nativity scene alongside a menorah or other religious symbol was disallowed? If so, the court was wrong, IMHO. If the case involved a nativity scene by itself on public property, the court made the right decision.

First of all, the wikipedia isn't exactly an authoritative source of info. That whole "anybody can post anything" problem and alkl. A useful source for basic info on non-controversial subjects, but hardly a source to be cited in a debate.

As to decorations on a tree being an exclusively Xtian thing:

http://www.religioustolerance.org/xmas_tree.htm

Read above.

Fine with me. But what would the difference be between a "christmas tree" and the "holiday tree" be. Angels hanging on the "christmas tree", with Goddess figures on the pagan one?

Again, you haven't shown anything Christian about a decorated evergreen tree. Go back and reread the link I posted.

No problem there, except that your "equal access" seems to involve redefining other religious symbols as your own, then getting upset when called on it...

Quite typical to redefine "anti-Christian" to simply mean "non-Christian who refuses to be quiet and accept Christian hegemony"...

 

sure


ANN ARBOR, MI —A New York Federal Judge ruled Wednesday that it is constitutionally permissible for the New York City Department of Education to ban the display of the Christian Nativity during Christmas, while permitting the display of the Jewish Menorah and the Islamic Star and Crescent during Hanukkah and Ramadan. The legal challenge to this policy was brought by the Thomas More Law Center on behalf of Ms. Andrea Skoros and her two children, who attend public elementary schools in New York. Ms. Skoros and her children are devout Catholics.

http://www.thomasmore.org/news.html?NewsID=178

oh?

Wikipedia is about as good a source of accurate information as Britannica, the venerable standard-bearer of facts about the world around us, according to a study published this week in the journal Nature.

http://news.com.com/Study+Wikipedia+as+accurate+as+Britannica/2100-1038_3-5997332.html

BTW, your source cites wikipedia..whoops

The modern custom, however, cannot be proved to be descended from pagan tradition directly. It can be traced to 16th century Germany; Ingeborg Weber-Keller (Marburg professor of European ethnology) identified as the earliest reference a Bremen guild chronicle of 1570 which reports how a small fir was decorated with apples, nuts, dates, pretzels and paper flowers, and erected in the guild-house, for the benefit of the guild members' children, who collected the dainties on Christmas day. Another early reference is from Basel, where the taylor apprentices carried around town a tree decorated with apples and cheese in 1597.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas_tree

i'll stand by that source. If you can prove that the modern custom is directly descended from ancient pagan rituals you should put forth the evidence

ditto

I dont know what a 'holiday tree' for pagans looks like, so i dont know. I have a sneaking suspicion it would look a lot like a christmas tree.

Again, see the citation, which actually names a person who did a study..as opposed to yours which cites more websites

Read previous posts about cultures adopting/changing. You have a centuries old gripe. To deny the christmas tree as part of christian celebration today is kinda foolish.

Yes, asking a christmas tree to be called a christmas tree is imposing Christian hegemony.

You know, you guys are all the same. You make it sound like we're forcing our religion on you in order to make us look like the bad guys. It is you guys who want to deny christians the right to practice their religion(and YES decorating for holidays IS practicing religion) that are the bad guys. You guys are the scrooges who want to deny us our rights. We aren't imposing on you by asking for a christmas tree to be called a christmas tree.

Drop the rhetoric, it doesn't hide that you have no argument.

 

OMG, I have to call total BS here...

You think you are being denied your rights because some people choose to say "Happy Holidays" instread of Merry Christmas, or because some city decided to call their tree a "Holiday" tree?

What rights are they taking away from you? The right to tell other people how to celebrate their holidays? The right to act like you hold the monopoly on holiday celebrations?

No one is taking any rights away from christians. Christmas is a federal holiday for christ's sake. No one is getting jailed for saying "Merry Christmas" or having a "christmas" tree in their house.

Although I have to say that it is funny to hear you crying out about a people's rights, Megara. Funny how it's the holiday semantics that get's you all worked up about civil rights in this country. Why worry about the president spying on us or our military torturing people in secret prisions when someone forgot to say "Christmas" in their holiday greeting! Oh the devastating impact to human rights worldwide!!!!

 

the right to practice our religion of course.

How am i telling OTHERS to celebrate their religion? I'm not against having a 'holiday tree' along side a 'christmas tree'.

I have said a couple times in this thread(which i am SURE you have read) that i dont care about 'happy holidays. So Dont try that with me.

Stop your rhetoric. I do NOT want a monopoly on holiday dominance. I have said several times that i want all holidays represented

Public land is our land. We have a right to seek redress from what we percieve to be religious intolerance(i.e. menorah, crescents put up, but no christmas tree).

I care deeply about what is going on with our civil liberties. Somethings i agree with bush on, others i dont(for example, i see NO reason why medical/library records should be handed over without a court order(this has been rectified recently). Are you infering that i can't care about many issues at once? Maybe you are unable of holding an opinion about more than 1 subject at a time, but i am far more capable.

Since you asked me a question, and i answered..i'll expect the same in return.

I asked you this earlier and you didn't respond. Do you believe we should rename the menorah to something like 'holiday candles' so that it is more inclusive? If not, why should we rename a christmas tree to holiday tree to be more inclusive?

 

If that case actually happened as the site states, then as I stated before, the courts made a lousy decision. I would like some info on the case from a page not as obviously biased as the "Thomas Moore Law Center", however. Got a case name or number?

Uh, that study was in reference to articles in the SCIENCES, where errors, omissions, and flat-out BULLSHIT are more likely to be immediately found, challenged, and corrected by people who actually know what they are talking about.

Wikipedia's accuracy on issues of history, religion, or politics is MUCH less impressive. Particularly on "controversial" topics, where opposing sides often end up in a "revision battle" which can destroy the entire article.

BTW, I am a Wikipedia contributor on many articles, mostly scientific/technical in nature. so I have great respect for what it can do, but also recognize its limitations, which are mostly caused by human nature. And you really can't "cite" a reference that can change after citation, can you?

As one site among many others, yes. OTOH, the wikipedia is the ONLY source you keep citing....

Gee, might that be because before it was twisted into a "Christmas tree", it was already in use by many pagan religions?

Which "christian celebrations" would they be, annyway? There are lots of Christians who regard christmas trees, reindeer, holly, mistletoe, Santa, and all the rest as "idols" or "graven images" and evidence of "devil worship".

http://www.letgodbetrue.com/bible/holidays/christmas-is-adultery.htm
http://www.gaius.org/christmas.asp
http://www.ellenwhite.org/criticg.htm
http://www.bible-truths.org/tracts/christ~1.htm


And at least they have passages from their bible that back them up...

So your "crusade" doesn't even speak for all CHRISTIANS, much less for everyone else.

But asking all decorated trees to be called "Christmas trees" sure as hell is.

Please show us where ANYONE in this thread is denying Christians the right to practice their beliefs, including decorating a tree and calling it any damn thing they want to. If you want to ignore scripture, and engage in idolatry and pagan rituals while still calling yourself a "Christian", that's between you and your God. Certainly not MY place to try to stop you....

 

No i dont. And your link to 'religious tolerance' is less bias than the thomas moore law center?

Do a simple google search. I provided you with sufficient citation.

You are correct on that study being in reference to science articles. My mistake, sorry.

The site makes reference to a german professor, which is far more authoritative than anything i see your links providing..


here is another...

"Germany is credited with starting the Christmas tree tradition as we now know it in the 16th century when devout Christians brought decorated trees into their homes. Some built Christmas pyramids of wood and decorated them with evergreens and candles if wood was scarce. It is a widely held belief that Martin Luther, the 16th-century Protestant reformer, first added lighted candles to a tree. Walking toward his home one winter evening, composing a sermon, he was awed by the brilliance of stars twinkling amidst evergreens. To recapture the scene for his family, he erected a tree in the main room and wired its branches with lighted candles. "

http://www.historychannel.com/exhibits/holidays/christmas/trees.html

uh?? How on earth are you going to argue that the modern christmas tree looks like a christmas tree that pagans used centuries ago? Please, show SOME evidence to show a direct connection.

Yes, there are well over a billion christians on earth. It is impossible to speak for everyone.

I find it funny however that you quote the OLD testament for a holiday that developed after it was written. Christians as a group are very undecided on what parts of the old testament they follow(convenient i know). Every word in the bible is not applicable to every christian...

who asked that?

look at the title of this thread! It is asking why christians care about the term holiday tree instead of christmas tree!