What is Money really and what its faults and

thanks for reminding me reb.

Wica,
What was so great about the gilded age?

 

and...what does that have to do with the circumstances surrounding status, accounting and the legal circumstances surrounding it. that is general, I am about the specifics. money is just that money, it is the systems involving them that effect people and how the money is appropriated through trust, accounting and the like. so is it ok if we discuss the specifics because I think we all understand the general idea of what money can be. now what about the faults surrounding the different kinds of money and since calculations are not done by themselves, the accounting and procedures surrounding them. is that ok?

 

How about letting us know what you've figured out? Are you talking about donations to political parties rather than directly to candidates when you say "soft money"?

 

Make your point. There's no need for lengthy posts of dictionary definitions of words, we can all access a dictionary if needed. But I think the purpose of the thread was, once we all recognize what money is, would be to discuss what the faults are of the monetary system are.

 

I have made several points in fact. My point is that the economic system is way more complex then has been explained here and I am giving a more thorough explanation, is that ok? why is that? you obviously do not understand what system you are dealing with and maybe incorrect on many aspects that you think you know so I have to clarify so that the conversation has substance. please rebut my points and then we can decide what is necessary and what is not...because from where I stand, none of this is knowledge that most people know nor understand as it is becoming more and more obvious. are you telling me we do not need to understand the law? or the law understanding economics? are you telling me we will understand money without understanding the laws and procedures surrounding them? I cannot even begin to state how backwards that appears to be...

 

You've thrown out the definitions of a number of words leaving it to the reader to provide an association with money without making point yourself.

Do you disagree with the definition of money taken from Black's Law Dictionary?

 

Mostly as a way to feel like they're still a part of society. Imagine not having a cellular phone in this day and age. You'd be look on as a weirdo. But in terms of dictating the economy, to have true power over it, the average person has no say.

Also, money itself is a horrible idea. Check out this story of a rock musician who developed cancer:

Battle with cancer
In May 1999, Schuldiner experienced pain in his upper neck, which he initially thought was a pinched nerve. He consulted with a chiropractor followed by a massage therapist/acupuncturist who recommended an MRI Exam. Upon having an MRI, it was discovered that the pinched nerve was being caused by a tumor. On his 32nd birthday, May 13, 1999, Schuldiner was diagnosed with a high-grade pontine glioma, a malignant type of brain cancer that invades the brain stem, and immediately underwent radiation therapy.
In October 1999, Schuldiner’s family announced that the tumor had necrotized and that he was on the way to recovery. In January 2000, Schuldiner underwent surgery to remove what remained of his tumor. The operation was a success. However, the Schuldiner family was struggling financially. The total costs of the operations came to $70,000, a price the Schuldiner family could not afford. Many fundraisers, auctions, and benefit concerts took place to help cover the costs. The money began to come in as the metal community, in total shock, realized that Schuldiner's life was in danger. The metal community and the Schuldiner family showed deep concern because Schuldiner could have lost his life due to lack of funds.
Schuldiner continued to work on his music, continuing his work with Control Denied. About two years after his original diagnosis, in May 2001, the cancer returned and Schuldiner fell ill again. He was originally denied surgery (which he needed immediately) due to lack of funds. A press release called for support from everyone, including fellow artists. Jane Schuldiner urged all who read the statements about Schuldiner and his illness to go out and get insurance, stating her frustration in the American healthcare system. Schuldiner had gotten medical insurance after his first surgery, but the insurer had refused to pay because the tumor existed before he had gotten the insurance. Many artists, including Kid Rock, Korn and Red Hot Chili Peppers, got together during the summer of 2001 to auction off personal items with the funds assisting Schuldiner's medical expenses, an effort covered by MTV.[21] Matt Heafy, vocalist and guitarist for Trivium has also stated that the band had played a benefit show for Schuldiner while he was in the hospital in their days as a local band.[22] Schuldiner received a chemotherapy drug called vincristine to help with his therapy. Like most drugs used in the treatment of cancer, the side effects were harsh and weakened Schuldiner greatly. In late October/early November, Schuldiner became ill with pneumonia.
Schuldiner died on December 13, 2001, at approximately 4 p.m. Eastern Standard Time.[23] He was cremated[24] and MTV reported that recording artists, including Mike Patton, Dimebag Darrell, Glen Benton, King Diamond, Ville Valo, Trey Azagthoth and Max Cavalera, along with all of the former and active members of Death, attended his memorial service.


Because he didn't have the money, the hospital did not do the surgeries he needed. He died simply because he didn't provide them with pieces of paper.

Or how about when an elderly home can not get the proper equipment to help the elderly and their conditions because they lack funding to buy that equipment? Just because there is no money (just a concept in our minds), these onnes are going without what they need. Instead of help being provided.

Money is a nasty invention.

Don't think this is directed at you though... just letting out some steam.

 

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qpM6w4Ri5RQ

 

How would we avail ourselves of the products or services of one another that exist today without money or some other form having a perceived value acceptable by all?
I would presume that the concert tours made by the Metal musician required the purchase of tickets to attend? And the CD's or other forms of his bands music were made available only for a price?
Do you really know "all" the facts behind "why" he was denied surgery?
There exists another version explaining the cause of pneumonia.
And would the surgery have saved him?

Few people are willing to work for free, and a growing number appear unwilling to work for wages.

Money is a necessity when the products we desire require the efforts of people from around the world, who most likely expect something in return for their efforts. The only problem with what we use as money today is that it has no intrinsic value of its own, and the more of it that is produced reduces the value of all that exists. That works out well to the benefit of a government that perpetually increases its debt, while at the expense of the general working population. So money was a very good invention until fiat money came into existence, and worsened by government actions beginning in 1913. As of June 2011, based on figures from the Federal Reserve and the U.S. Treasury, gold, a true commodity currency would be worth about $7500/oz if the physical money in existence was backed by the gold held by the U.S. Treasury. Gold, however is trading today at $1601.43/oz and the dollar appears to diminishing in value relative to a number of other world currencies, some of which are also weakening. Surprisingly, well maybe not really, M3 is no longer tracked and reported.

 

i think many of the problems i have with money arise with 'the manipulation of money'. for example....

let's say george comes to my bar, and wants a shot of whisky. i give him one. 'Five dollars, please, George'. he pays up and leaves.

i immediately take the bottle back to the sink, and fill it to its previous level with water.

next day, same thing...and the next...and the next.

this is 'the manipulation of money' in reverse. George's purchasing power has gone to carp, and so has ours, due to the constant variance of the flow of quantity as managed by the major banks and government organizations.

the problem arises NOT from the existence of money, but from the way it is handled.

watch it, goddamit. i don't have a cell phone, and don't want one. why in hell do i want some jerk who usually has nothing important to say calling me when i'm relaxing or taking a shit? lunacy.

 

after listening to 'money' over and over again for these past weeks, i thought i should also post this..

the balanced budget and debt ceiling fight going on in the u.s. is not just about 'funding social programs'. the reason the liberal left is so set on raising the debt ceiling, and NOT having a balanced budget amendment is that the manipulation of monetary policy will be severely damaged. specifically, the ability to use inflation to raise tax rates without action or public scrutiny. if the congress can no longer use debt as an instrument of 'shoring up the economy', then what will they do? in addition, this would only leave the federal reserve as 'an instrument of monetary policy'; the fed's actions would typically have more severe consequences.

anyone who believes that it is ok to buy votes with social program money deserves to live in north korea or china. the debt is killing the economy in this country. if this means that congress has to live within a budget, tough shit. the rest of us already have to live with a budget...well, some do, anyway. i get a dozen calls a week looking for some deadbeat who used to have my phone number. countries run by a dictator have great monetary policy...'if you have it, it's mine if i want it'. does this sound similar to irs behaviour in recent years? you might do a web search before you answer that....

money, as an instrument of governmental control, sucks. its most appropriate use is as a convenient measure of trade value, not a way to stay in lifetime public office.

 

Basically what we are calling money today are promissory notes. On their own they have no intrinsic value at all. We are acquiring our needs today with governments promise that those living in the future will be held accountable.
On my birth, the debt I was born owing in reference to the National debt as a share per person was $225.55. Someone born today begins life owing a minimum of $46,015.94. Is this a sustainable path economically? No generation should leave unpaid debt for future generations.


Some meaningful quotes attributed to Thomas Jefferson which are quite relevant today:

"We must not let our rulers load us with perpetual debt. We must make our election between economy and liberty or profusion and servitude. If we run into such debt, as that we must be taxed in our meat and in our drink, in our necessaries and our comforts, in our labors and our amusements, for our calling and our creeds...[we will] have no time to think, no means of calling our miss-managers to account but be glad to obtain subsistence by hiring ourselves to rivet their chains on the necks of our fellow-sufferers... And this is the tendency of all human governments. A departure from principle in one instance becomes a precedent for[ another]... till the bulk of society is reduced to be mere automatons of misery... And the fore-horse of this frightful team is public debt. Taxation follows that, and in its train wretchedness and oppression."

"The system of banking [is] a blot left in all our Constitutions, which, if not covered, will end in their destruction... I sincerely believe that banking institutions are more dangerous than standing armies; and that the principle of spending money to be paid by posterity... is but swindling futurity on a large scale."

"I am for a government rigorously frugal and simple. Were we directed from Washington when to sow, when to reap, we should soon want bread."

"The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts as are only injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg."

"Is uniformity attainable? Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites."

"On every question of construction [of the Constitution] let us carry ourselves back to the time when the Constitution was adopted, recollect the spirit manifested in the debates, and instead of trying what meaning may be squeezed out of the text, or intended against it, conform to the probable one in which it was passed."

"A morsel of genuine history is a thing so rare as to be always valuable."

 

what is debt? 5000 years of debt.
http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2011/08/what-is-debt-%E2%80%93-an-interview-with-economic-anthropologist-david-graeber.html

 

That is some kind of materialistic explanation developed from the capacity of Man in what He is, just enacting the factual resistance to dying on this planet; and as by such dying anyhow he is claimed to be violent. By the debt in growing away from this violent essence, he substitutes the essence to be free in exchange of the liquid asset of meaningful reasons to remember his encounters with the fellowman. Money is also meaningful for remembering that EACH ONE of US is scared into Work.

Barrick Obama doesn't believe that we should be afraid that our Work will NOT represent overcoming ANY debt to the environment.

 

This link visually displays the debt owed by the Federal government.
http://usdebt.kleptocracy.us/

 

If money can save starving people, allow people to research various diseases and help the world spread resources around I'm all for it.

When people start to buy things they really don't need, and allow terrible things to go on without the slightest bit of philanthropy it's seemingly evil.

Like anything in life, money is not black, nor white, but a gray area that needs a person to spend it in order to give it any power.

 

Money itself isn't bad, but when people look toward money to achieve happiness and therefore need infinite amounts while disregarding everyone else it can become a problem.

What we have now is record wealth accumulations in very few hands while poverty is increasing and most people/governments are going further into debt. Eventually this trend has to change most likely through social revolution.

 

The money situation is too tempting to game for some, to the deleterious effect of making societies work extremely well for a certain %, while simultaneously keeping others in bondage. This is fine for some, but seen as way out of balance for others. The idea of trading labor and /or product for labor and /or product worked well when most people on earth generated their own labor and /or products right on their own land or were hunter-gatherers and there was no huge interactive monetary system. It was real,direct and trading worked when necessary or desired. Now, the system is large,confusing and purposely obfuscated with all the concocted ways to shuffle paper to generate wealth. There's virtually no way to determine whether or what value received is worth value given. I have my opinion about that. The bondage to materialism game has obviously been created by and for the "create a need and then fill that need" folks and our whole system now depends on their game. We don't play the game and it will collapse. Doubt if there's much of a way out of it until down the line when the earth is way overloaded and chaos ensues. Hear anyone talking about a one child policy to ameliorate the burgeoning population problem? To attempt to live in balance with what we have been given? Take the whole of human history and determine for yourself whether humans are really much differant now than we ever were,when it comes to the treatment of our fellow humans and systems that have been/are gamed for gain. On it goes. In my opinion, the earth ,including the monetary system is not run correctly at all. So ,since I can do nothing about it-I'll shut the fuck up and jump back on the zombie treadmill. Won't you join me??

 

Wondering what the responses would have been if the question this thread posed had been "What should money be?"