What is Money really and what its faults and

What you are presenting really is not so different.
Many people here are basically saying a lot of what you're saying. Only difference I see is that you are looking at it more from a purely legal aspect. The economic aspects of what you are saying seem to be getting over-looked because you are focusing so much on the legals.

Either way, text book quotes will not help. Conceptual explainations might.

 

the legal determines the economic stature, rights, status and the duties of all parties involved. it is different because we have not been taught private international law, admiralty, estate law and trust.

 

Why not just create a new thread clearly defining the direction you wish to pursue in its title?

 

why don't you..I will definitely chime in

 

I vote for tehuti to start a new thread about the legal aspects of the economy.
If that is what he/she has been trying to say.

I could be wrong but to me it seems like that's what he/she is trying to say.

 

I pretty much agree with you.I always like to say money it's self is not the "root of all evil" but rather the LOVE of money.:sunny:

 

Aponymous, when i say that those larger concepts disappear on a local level, i mean that the average person is neither aware of them, nor do they care about them. if i begin to explain how inflation has raised tax brackets and thereby taxes, has diluted the purchasing power of salaries....nearly anyone i know on the local level will have their eyes glaze over. they are definitely affected by larger policies, but much like the man caught in a tornado, all he wishes to do is to be alive when it passes.

tehuti, this is why i am not replying to this legal whirlwind you are on. i don't respect laws as written by the rulers, nor do i feel the law is ever applied to monetary matters unless it is in the best interest of the rulers to do so. i certainly do not respect international law. if law has any relationship to money, it is used against those of us trying to survive at the lower income levels of society. tax law is that way; laws of property are that way....whatever the law says is only weasel worded to perform for the ruling class.

if you think highly of 'the law', read this blibbering shit and tell me how it will help me fix my car, or put gas in my tank at a lower price or keep fleas off my dog or have any constructive use for me as a living entity not associated with the rulers? the law is intentionally written to confuse the public, and thereby make them subject to it and its vicissitudes:

http://www.federalreserve.gov/bankinforeg/default.htm

the concept of money, on the other hand, completely independent of any law is either crucial to a person who intends to engage in any sort of commerce, or is something that will plague them like a tapeworm. the only way to avoid the concept of money is to be dead. it's criminal that children are not educated about 'money' from an early age.

 

You are correct.
Another item often misquoted from the Bible.

1 Timothy 6:10

For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs.


I think most other similar references also stipulate it's the love or desire for money that is the problem. I don't think it says anywhere that money is the root of all evil. Money itself is a neutral entity.

Money is nothing more than an agreed upon medium of exchange, as has been pointed out numerous times in this thread. The need for such a medium of exchange is a result of human civilization evolving past the simple hunter-gatherer societal model and growing population groups. As populations grew, so did the specialization of labor. That specialization ultimately dictated the need for some common means of trading goods and services.

The problem we see now is simply that the medium of exchange now longer is a "substitute" for things of actual value, food, water, land, services, etc. but instead has become the thing of value itself, even though it has no intrinsic value. That is the main reason we are in the shithole the world is in now. If currency were actually backed by something of real intrinsic value, then there would be a self limiting factor tied to that intrinsic value and rampant inflation would not occur as it does now. As it is now with currency itself being regarded as "valuable" it's easy enough for any government to just crank up the presses and produce more, which is exactly what we have seen over the last few decades.

***The previous statements are the opinions of HermanDaVermin (and other smart people ) and are not put forth as a challenge, call for debate, or any other such BS. ***

Thankyou for your support.:sunny:

 

would someone else like for me to contribute some things to a topic on something like that? maybe I could start off slow because it's a task and requires some maintenance but maybe I could start off with some basic things and at the very least start some interesting conversation on the subject. if some others vote than I will..

 

i think you need to start a poll.
If you do, I'll vote. I don't know if others will.

I'm being as serious as much as I am being a wise-ass.

 

lol ok that's fine

 

I find the current topic adequate for discussion as well as expansion once a clear definition of what money is can be accepted. You've gone off in so many different directions, it would be better for you to start a thread topic for discussion and see if any others would be interested in joining in.

 

1. is the IMF and Federal Reserve a trust?

2. Are federal reserve notes trust funds? are there rules governing trust funds?

3. what kind of money are fed notes? please answer these questions so that we can find out if I am staying on point or not. if you cannot then you need to have a fuller understanding of the subject, bottom line. now I will open another thread but let's figure out what we have here first.

4. are fed notes securities?

5. are fed notes negotiable instruments?

are there rules surrounding how these things are used or are not used?

please tell me how this is not relevant? I think the problem u maybe having is you have a limited view on this subject so maybe you wana take a step back and learn something first by listening and then come back when you are more prepared...sorry but I have no idea how else to address you on this subject right now. was the question of the thread what is money and what are its faults? well trust funds are money, so please tell me how I am wrong be as specific as possible.

6. further, are fed notes money of account, i.e. credit, and if so who issuer?

7. who has subrogated the rights to the credit?

the fact of the matter is, my question still stands, would you like to make a small wager on this??

 

Sounds like any of the above could be the source for beginning a thread topic.

Trust funds are money? Try starting a thread on that one.

 

why don't you give this a look see for starters:

well did you know any "person" in commerce is a trust? a person, just like ownership, money, trust are very general terms which when looked at closer reveals legalese at a high level. what kind of ownership do people have today. did you know there were different kinds of "persons". Each section of code and statute has a definition section revealing the legalese and unless you look at them and understand them you have no idea what the law, money or the surrounding circumstances around them are. let's look at black's law dictionary for some of these:



Black's Law Dictionary 2nd Edition pgs 534-535:

Person. 1. A human being. also termed natural person. (interestingly enough, natural person appears only a few times in statute).

artificial person. An entity, such as a corporation, created by law and given certain legal rights and duties of a human being; a being real or imaginary, who for the purpose of legal reasoning is treated more or less as a human being.



Under the internal revenue code, title 26 usc, under the definitions section a person generally is:



TITLE 26 > Subtitle F > CHAPTER 79 > § 7701

§ 7701. Definitions

(a) When used in this title, where not otherwise distinctly expressed or manifestly incompatible with the intent thereof—
(1) Person
The term “person” shall be construed to mean and include an individual, a TRUST, estate, partnership, association, company or corporation.


More specifically, a US Person is defined as:

(30) United States person
The term “United States person” means—
(A) a citizen or resident of the United States,
(B) a domestic partnership,
(C) a domestic corporation,
(D) any estate (other than a foreign estate, within the meaning of paragraph (31)), and
(E) ANY TRUST if—
(i) a court within the United States is able to exercise primary supervision over the administration of the trust, and
(ii) one or more United States persons have the authority to control all substantial decisions of the trust.




Now what creates a trust:

http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/...106551,00.html

Basic Trust Law

Q: What is a trust?

A: A trust is an entity created and governed under the state law in which it was formed. A trust involves the creation of a fiduciary relationship between a grantor, a trustee, and a beneficiary for a stated purpose. A trust may be created by any of the following methods:

A declaration by the owner of property that the owner holds the property as trustee;
A transfer of property by the owner during the owner's lifetime to another person as trustee;
A transfer of property by the owner, by will or by other instrument taking effect upon the death of the owner, in trust, to another person as trustee or
An exercise of a power of appointment to another person as trustee or an enforceable promise to create a trust.

Q: Who is a grantor of a trust?

A: The grantor (also known as trustor, settlor, or creator) is the creator of the trust relationship and is generally the owner of the assets initially contributed to the trust. The grantor generally establishes in the trust instrument the terms and provisions of the trust relationship between the grantor, the trustee, and the beneficiary. These will usually include the following:

The rights, duties, and powers of the trustee;
Distribution provisions;
Ability of the grantor to amend, modify, revoke, or terminate the trust agreement;
The designation and selection of a trustee or successor trustees; and
The designation of the state under which the terms and provisions of the trust agreement are to be governed.

The money place in things like CAFR accounts are placed there by trustees for the benefit of the beneficiaries and or entitlement holders per statute. look at your city and state CAFR and you can find out many things about what funds are in trust and who are the trustees. Since any person is a trust, any gratuitous transfer of property placed with a person is considered a trust:



http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-tege/eotopica03.pdf

Who are the parties to a trust?

Parties Trusts are defined in terms of parties (grantor, trustee, beneficiary) and
relationships pertaining to the trust property.

Grantor Every express trust has one or more grantors who contribute the property to the trustee and state the terms of the trust. The grantor is deemed a substantial contributor/disqualified person with respect to the trust, under IRC 507(d)(2)(A).

Other names for the grantor include:
creator
donor
founder
settlor
Trustor



Property Alternative names for the property transferred to the trust are the:
Capital
Corpus
Estate
Principal
Res

Document title The written document governing the trust typically is given one of the following titles, although no title is necessary:
agreement
declaration
deed
indenture
instrument
will/testament (for testamentary trust)


As you can see, trusts can be created by operations of law and no title is necessary to establish one:

http://www.in.gov/legislative/ic/cod...0/ar4/ch2.html


IC 30-4-2
Chapter 2. Rules Governing the Creation of Trusts
IC 30-4-2-1
Written evidence of terms; definite terms; validity of inter vivos trust; existence of trust beneficiaries; creation of trust by exercise of power of appointment
Sec. 1. (a) A trust in either real or personal property is enforceable only if there is written evidence of its terms bearing the signature of the settlor or the settlor's authorized agent.
(b) Except as required in the applicable probate law for the execution of wills, no formal language is required to create a trust, but its terms must be sufficiently definite so that the trust property, the identity of the trustee, the nature of the trustee's interest, the identity of the beneficiary, the nature of the beneficiary's interest and the purpose of the trust may be ascertained with reasonable certainty.

IC 30-4-1-2
Other definitions
Sec. 2. As used in this article:

(19) "Trust property" means property either placed in trust or purchased or otherwise acquired by the trustee for the trust regardless of whether the trust property is titled in the name of the trustee or the name of the trust.


http://www.irs.gov/instructions/i3520a/ch01.html

Grantor

A grantor includes any person who creates a trust or directly or indirectly makes a gratuitous transfer of cash or other property to a trust. A grantor includes any person treated as the owner of any part of a foreign trust's assets under sections 671 through 679, excluding section 678


http://www.businessdictionary.com/de...ied-trust.html

implied trust

Definition

Trust that arises from the un-expressed and presumed intentions (inferred from a trustor's conduct, language, or relationships), or is enforced by a court as a result of surrounding circumstances. For example, if 'A' purchases property in the name of 'B', there is a presumed intention that 'A' holds that property in trust for 'B.'

 

i think i've figured out the problem with soft money and debt

if there's a little bit of currency to spread around amongst the poor, and the poor get to live indoors and drive cars and buy food and such

how is everyone else able to easily recognize that they're better than them?

it was so much easier back in the gilded age . . .

 

I really doubt that being seen as better than others is a major motivating factor for people to acquire wealth.

 

Hmm, how about trusts in general? Maybe estates later....

 

wa, nobody is better than anybody else. generally, it's a hunger for 'power' and luck that makes a person monetarily 'rich'. rich is a relative term...i think richness, or value, perhaps is in the eye of the beholder. 'being better than someone else' is also in the eye of the beholder. every sumbitch i know has warts-sometimes the warts are not right on their face, but on their ass. you don't get to see them til they show you their ass.

are you saying you want to live in the gelded age? and you want to have soft money? i agree...ben is softer than jefferson on the quarter.

 

I might, if it had anything to do with the topic of this thread.

However, since the topic is "money", and you appear to have a proclivity for posting definitions of terms from Black's Law Dictionary, I've provided below the one definition that you'll eventually find in that same volume if you keep looking.


MONEY. A general, Indefinite term for
the measure and representatlve of value;
currency; the circulating medium; cash.
"Money" is a generic term, and embraces
every description of coIn or bank-notes rec-
ognized by common consent as a representa-
tive or value in effecting exchanges of prop-
erty or payment of debts. Hopson v. Foun-
taln, 5 Humph. (Tenn.) 140.
Money is used in a specific and also in a gen-
eral and more comprehensive sense. In its spe-
cific sease, it means what is coined or stampcd
by public authority, and has its determinate
value fixed by governments. In its more com-
prehensive and general sense, it means wealth,-
the representative of commodities of all kinds,
of lands, and of everything that can be trans-
ferred in commerce. Paul v. Ball, 31 Tex. 10.
In its strict technical sense, "money" means
coined metal, usually gold or silver. upon which
the government stamp has been impressed to in-
dicate its value. In its more popular sense,
"money" means any currency, tokens, bank
notes, or other circulating medium in general
use as the representative of value. Kennedy v.
Briere, 45 Tex. 305.
The term "moneys" is not of more extensive
signification than "money," and means only
cash, and not things in action. Mann v. Mann,
14 Johns. (N. Y.) 1, 7 Am. Dec. 416.