What is it I'm doing wrong?

You're right. The way I stated God is not there is wrong, but it was in rememdy to others saying to meditate one needs God. Such isn't the case. I will contradict myself over and over, none of which is germain to the issue of how or why to meditate. Or whether meditation is successful or not. So I am to blame for issueing false statements. However, in this case there are no true statements. All statements should be seen as mere fodder for fools. Meditation is not about belief, it is about clearing the mind of belief. If someone comes to believe in something, or if someone believed something then meditation probably will not change that. Also, there is no real evidence that meditation leads to any new belief. It is greatly likely that those who do believe in God or those who don't have developed such a belief as a compound of many beliefs, none of which alone can be said to represent the entire truth. Thus such reporting of beliefs is not a key issue with meditation. That's about all I have to say. And I reserve the right to remain confused at to my beliefs. It means little when I sit to meditate and the mind is cleared of thoughts. Where have beliefs then gone?

 

There's only one clay. The forms made from it are almost beyond comprehension.

Almost.


x

 

The stance that meditation (or dhyana in sanskrit) is a practice leading to God realization, Divine Consciousness, or Samadhi is not a belief. It has a scriptural basis going back into antiquity, which finds its coalescent expression with the Tantras. This stance is not a recent one.

For people sincerely seeking out definitive explanations about meditation through this forum or any other forum, to run across so much misunderstandings and unspecifics about it is confusing more than it is helpful.

peace, love, om

 

But you have to appreciate the joy of being at a public pool.

You know the water is a little tainted but you go in anyway. And hopefully find the simple pleasure of just rubbing elbows with all your brothers and sisters.

That itself takes awareness.



x

 

Everything has a scriptural basis. So also does the idea that one can meditate without any enjoining of God. Have you ever heard of Buddhism?

 

Ohh it fills me with the deepest of joys to see this thread still going on Well I still haven't given up but ofcourse no real results have come out as yet. And as to why I was drawn to meditation, it was initially to just clear my mind and not be swayed by my pessimism at everything I do. In other words, just to get a better hold of myself and simply to feel better. But lately (or rather since a long time) it was probably all because of the feeling of pointlessness I feel inside watching how most others seem to live their lives(including myself).

 

Meditation is about observation, without any attachment to what you may see.

Its normal to have trouble adjusting to an ever expanding perspective. It may stir things up in you, as you find your sensitivity sometimes overwhelms. You'll get better by doing.

As for others, they too are on their own path, complete with whatever it contains for them to grow. You have a certain amount of freedom to interact if you like, but they continue down their path whether you do or not.

Be aware of the passing show. Watch it go by and try not to get in the way of it.


x

 

Well, that pointlessness is a key experience in itself. On the flipside it is called freedom.

 

Greetings Megavan

For me, it is great to see so many people discussing meditation, their practices, experiences, etc., Meditation is everything and nothing. For me when in meditation I am present and in a state of total acceptance and relaxation. Perhaps Vipassana is not the method you need to start with. The mind will always be present, what needs to be transformed is how you perceive the mind. When you are able to witness without judgement then you have taken a step towards meditation. There are many techniques available 112 in the Vigyan Bhairav Tantra...you could try one everyday! You have to find what works for you, meditation not only happens when sitting in lotus pose it is a qualtiy that you can bring into your daily life.

Trusting you are where you should be
Ashni

 

It makes me really happy to see such a well worded and thought out reply! I'm not sure what else there is to say at this point. Namaskar.

 

What terrible ignorance you two are promoting in this thread. Your above statements are most accurate, and you both contribute to the problem! It is disgruntling that nobody yet has dismantled your half-baked notions. A failure of people to do so, in society with people like you, makes you think that you can continue talking as you do. And you speak as you do because you believe it is important to convey an aire of competence when you speak, as the medium is part of the message. And because of this, people, lacking the facts, tend to believe you.

You don't realize what a wasteland we live in.

There are many ways to mediate. Megavan, if you want to e-mail me personally, I can surely get you meditating well, in short order. But since I cannot correspond one-on-one here at length with you, I will post what I can. Words suck, and you need a lot of them to illustrate subtle points, and people have very short attention spans.

Meditation is a tool to help you towards self-realization. Self-realization is the beginning, like square one, wherefrom you may truly begin living. It is not the goal, and hardly out of reach as it is so commonly portrayed to be in the modern marketplace of ideas. A lack of directions to get there is chiefly to blame, but in turn humanity's ignorant unconscious muckings in a larger conspiracy may also be to blame. But I digress.

There are really many kinds of meditation. It is very difficult to recommend a particular approach in an individual case over the internet without more information. But there are some general things I can say.

Meditation will help you be happier, wiser, more confident, and pretty much all-around better! I like to frame it this way to get people motivated, because it's absolutely true. Some people always argue that happiness, wisdom, confidence, and such and such cannot be meditation goals per se, but they are messing with semantics because if they cannot be goals then they are self-defeating and cannot be actualized through meditation, so the counter-argument is inherent in my original statement. Not to mention that the Left Hand Path has gotten a very bad wrap, because it is perfectly just and noble to invest largely in yourself, if you intend to live well; if your intention is inpure and you squander your gains then you will have to overcome this, but conversely if you invest too little in yourself then your investments in other things apart from yourself can but be poor and inefficient since you cannot give what you do not have and you end up taking many small baby steps and it takes a very long time to make progress.

There are different ways to begin the journey. It is important to clarify one's intention for life and discern any blockages of one's will. However, these things are difficult to do if one lacks knowledge about the reality they live in, the relationships therein, how morality works, how the human psyche works. Therefore you cannot proceed unless you also read up on spirituality and seek out good sources of knowledge, the diamonds in the rough. But there is one thing that is always necessary to do to begin, and doing it helps you *want* to investigate your intent and will and to get thinking and acting more spiritually. This thing will come more easily to some than to others. It is learning to not think, and then more advanced, to think subtly. Learning to think in life the right way is a huge key to a marked increase in life's awesomeness! People assume that if it's so easy then we'd all already be doing it - alas, not if there's a conspiracy.

Not thinking means just that, thinking no thoughts whatsoever. Making no judgements whatsoever about what you see visually, hear, touch, etc. Not thinking results in a change of awareness, of awareness perspective, as your awareness shifts away from your thoughts. Your thoughts are not who you are, but simply concretizations of what is truly at your attention. Zoning out or nodding off is the wrong way to not think and is easy to avoid, just do not give in to tiredness, because you are determined to simply remain doing what it is you are doing while you don't think. For when your awareness shifts focus away from your thoughts, the awarenes does not disappear but simply goes elsewhere, naturally, to what else is around you, to what else you perceive outer and inner. Therefore not thinking is a matter of mindfulness as opposed to aloofness.

Now yes, when you stop focusing on thinking, then you will naturally focus on everything else. This does necessarily imply that you will feel your inner body more, that is, you will recognize your emotions more. This is a natural by-product of meditation, and it cannot be avoided, for a run-away mind is precisely an in-built defense mechanism against emtions that are perceived as threatening, usually unconsciously unless one is looking out for it. Meditation increases your clarity of awareness of reality, and you can compensate by suppressing things more, but then you will just feel like meditating more often, and you will reach a point where you can no longer advance at all; and then, since change is the only constant, you reach the cliff edge and I believe the term is "mid life crisis" heh.

Not thinking puts you directly in touch with who you are, like not overly in touch, in any sort of mushy lovey way, but like just basically in touch, at state 'normal', as it should be. Therefore, meditation cannot progress past a certain point until you manage to think well of yourself, which you may or may not already do to more or less of an extent. If you dislike yourself for any reasons, if these reasons pile up too high, then you just don't look at yourself, you look everywhere else. Therefore if you stopped thinking right now and you dislike yourself, then there is also a term for that, I think it's a "bad trip", yep, as if you were on drugs. That's all it is, although sometimes such experiences can be confused for mental illness.

The good news is that if you meditate with even a little bit of mindfulness and willingness, then as you realize the things you don't like about yourself, wallowing or despairing about it would make another thing you dislike about yourself, it would be a waste of time, because meditation allows you to see the solutions in the same breath as the problems. It is a matter of going outside of your comfort zone, daring to be adverturous, daring to shine, to be truly a great person all-around, that person you never thought you could be. Obviously this involves accepting how much time you've already wasted, but be happy mang cause you're still young! However, you may find yourself without solutions about how to fix what you don't like about you, if you lack knowledge about the nature of reality.

This is why meditation is not very useful alone, because it's one part of a larger multi-facetted approach towards the meaning of life itself - then again, nothin ain't! But it's also why it is very useful and encouraged to do things like meditation at the same time as having someone wiser than yourself to speak to. You also want someone wise enough to know what they're saying, instead of just sounding like it, and enjoying or finding satisfaction in their sound, at that. This is part of the whole aspect of cultivating your understanding of reality from external sources, but of course, you can't find the meaning of life in a book, unless you're willing to think about it after of your own accord.

I haven't spoken much about actually meditating yet. But I hope you have a much better idea now of what it entails. Please get in touch if you would like me to elaborate further, and feel free to e-mail me privately if you'd like.

Namaste

 

The source of meditation is the Upanishadic and Tantric tradition, and is a Divine method by which the ego consciousness is reabsorbed into the Divine Consciousness. Which obviously you have no real interest in or realizaiton of.

 

On what grounds is the Tantric tradition the exclusive source of meditation?

By the way, according to Krishna Consciousness and the Baghavad Gita, we are beginning a new age now where the focus is on the throat chakra and voice. It is actually impossible to meditate, if you try then you will not succeed, so chanting is the best option. This comes directly from the supreme authority of Lord Krishna.

 

Mr Phoenix,
You sound like another disgruntled Hare Krsna devotee. Before I address your vague meditation system, you should know that I help found the Hare Krsna Mandir in New Orleans in 1971, and the farm community, New Talavan, in Mississippi in 1972. I was studying the Bhagavad Gita in the middle sixties before Swami Prabhupada came out with His edition in 1968.

You say Lord Krsna says to chant for meditation, funny, you don't mention this to Megavan.

But about what Krsna says in the Gita, most of what He says is Kriya Yoga, and involves the Kundalini directly.In Chapter 6, He tells Arjuna to sit in a quiet place and focus on the tip of the nose. This is a Tantric practice called nasikagra dristi, a Tantric Yoga practice, and is a direct means to awaken the Kundalini Devi.

In the verse commentary to Chapter 6, page 330, Prabhupada mentions "cit-sakti". Well, "cit-sakti", or consciousness of the sakti, is the Kundalini specifically.

In Chapter 8, He tells Arjuna to put the Life air at the top of the head, the life air is Kundalini Prana, and the top of the head is the Sahasrara Cakra.

I could go on and on. Not to mention the Karma Yoga Krsna describes.
In only one verse does Lord Krsna actually state to chant Japa, which is Chapter 10, verse 25.

The chanting mantra that the Hare Krsnas use was popularized by Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, in the late 1400's, as He established Himself as the most current
representative of the Gaudiya Math Sampradaya, the Guru lineage that Swami Prabhupada brought to the US and established as the Krsna Consciousness movement.

So Lord Chaitanya started the Chanting thing, not Lord Krsna.
Now, Swami Prabhupada said that Krsna established it in the Gita, but the Gita does not support that at all, and as I just quoted out of the actual book, there is a whole lot more Kriya and kundalini stuff in there, than there is about Japa. But you think what you want.

I am a Tantric Yogin who teaches Hatha/Kriya Sadhana at a local University, have published books on my Kundalini exploits, and walk and breath the "Transcendent" Lord Krsna describes throughout the Gita.

By the way, the Gita, as well as Lord Krsna, mention the beginning of the Kali Yuga, which is also in dozens of other Yogic texts of that era. Kali Yuga began when Lord Ksna left the earth, 5000 years ago. This is the "new age" you mention. Nothing "new" about it. Also, alot of what you say came from Guadiya Math Gurus, not Lord Krsna or the Gita. Get your facts right.

In summary, you say Lord Krsna said one cannot meditate, yet He gave Arjuna an entire Yoga Sadhana in which He describes ten different ways to meditate, and guess what, He was quoting what was already in the Tantras and Upanishads.
What you need to do Prabhu, is really learn to actually meditate, instead of saying foolish things about a sacred modality. Then you would discover two thingsne, that you can indeed meditate, and two, that you can experience the divine mind if you meditate properly and long enough.
Namaste, Yogin Bhairava Atmabhoda Sarasvati

 

I'm sorry I was unclear because you took good time to respond, but I was just mentioning Krishna in example, to show that there is scriptural basis for all sorts of things. The way Arjuna used Krishna's meditation, it is useful for one to rid themselves from society's programming, but it does not allow for forward progress beyond this. Krishna encourages Arjuna to take the next step on many occasions in the Gita. Meditation is, from this perspective, not transcendental.

And I know some disgruntled Hare Krishna devotees, I don't sound anything like them! They would call me, what is the word, a rascal.

Let me be more explicit. I think it is crucial that you recognize how others perceive you, and how people think in general. If people with little knowledge about meditation believe you, then everyone else will give them a hard time for it. Because they will emulate your way of framing your aguments, and it is primarily how you frame them that makes them untenable.

Basically, your definition of meditation hinges inextricably upon your definition of the Divine. What is the nature of the Divine is such a hotly contested issue, with tons of personal convictions and baggage invovled, that you cannot ever pretend that a particular perspective on this can be indirectly taken for granted in a given discussion. Many people don't even associate meditation directly with the Divine, let alone what particular view of It.

The Western perspective is seriously jaded from the blind Christian faith it is constantly exposed to. Logic is really crucial in getting through to it, and rightly so. Your doctrines involve some very complex and valid metaphysical concepts, but all I can take out of your posts is that you believe in some sacred texts and, by your unwillingness to entertain or even respect alternative views, you must probably believe in these sacred texts blindly. It is really a shame, because your message is respectable, although far from my own, but your medium conveys it poorly.

I know what it's like to speak above others, because you feel obliged to make a show of things, with the best of intentions, righteous and noble even, to demonstrate Truth over fallacy, to express your level of conviction. Under God, there is a particular way that you should speak. Alas, the way I see it, the misunderstandings in your most complex and respectable religious way show themselves strongly, and seem as well to prevent the practitioner from exploring alternative variations on the religion. There are conspiracy elements in most things, so what can I say.

It's particularly frustrating that many of your texts acknowledge the conspiracy, aliens and evil and all that stuff.

 

Namaste,
Sir, your stance on spirituality, at least from the Yogic perpsective is patently absurd and seriously lacking any genuine insightful base.
As far as where I am coming from, that would be the place of Consciousness, the pure divine consciousness of "Sat-Cit-Ananda". You see my friend, despite your grammatical skills with words, all your talk of religion and distinctions about God and views of God point to one glaring reality-you completely lack and actual awareness of the "absolute reality" of divine consciousness.
You see, the entire upanishadic and tantric stance upon which the Kundalini tradition rests, and thereby the Yogic tradition, is that all reality lies on the Immanant Consciousness field of God, called Paramasiva in the Tantric lineage.
Its all about consciousness my friend, not thinking or juxtopositioning or religiosity. Simply put, there are no religions, or ways, or positions of viewing reality. All of that is "Maya".
Instead, what actually exists is the pure consciousness of God as all reality. Yoga is the experience of becoming that. This is not religion. It is the experience of the absolute as Cit-Ananda as a living day to day reality. This is where this being lives, in the actual bosom of the divine as the dynamic reality of waking transcendental life. Om Namah Sivaya

 

Well said.
As for the Gita - as well as sitting meditation, there are three paths of yoga outlined - karma yoga, bhakti yoga and jnana yoga. An unbiased reading will show the truth of what I'm saying.
The truth is that those who have a partisanship with a particular path usually stress their own preferred yoga and ignore the others. This is very much the case with Prabhupada's Hare Krishna version. He wants to make Bhakti the entire subject of the Gita.

One other point - according to many authorities, Tantra dates from the medieval period, it is not from the time of the Upanishads.

 

Is that so? I'd be interested to know how you think one should speak 'under God'.

 

Hare Krishna mantra comes from Kaliasantarana Upanishad. Glarble croak gerp.

 

I was writing a nice long reply, but it will fall on deaf ears unless I get very lengthy, and this just isn't the place, nor is it a good use of my time (I should attend to other writing). I know you have the best of intentions. But you do not sufficiently question your first-hand experience, as if there is no evil in the universe that would seek to mislead us. There exist numerous reality models that are all cohesive, self-sufficient, and logical. It does not suffice to affirm how one's own makes sense, for it must be compared to others. It is easy to prove your view, but difficult to do so while in the same breath disproving all others, with a truly integrated approach; I concern myself with the latter task. (and don't get any ideas, I ain't an 'integral' Ken Wilbur fan, his site is so high tech and frizzy, you even have to pay for stuff! haha) On one hand you affirm things like simultaneous oneness and difference and Maya, while on the other hand you speak in polarized dualisms, as if it were impossible to address every facet of the issue in one fail masterful swoop. And since your perspective cannot subscribe to such an aim because it insists on adhering to particular protocol, divine names and terms, and tradition, right off the bat I know I could never subscribe to it. It is most illogical.

All I can say is that countless people can meditate under the perspective of an impersonal universal divine. Call me crazy, but I think the burden of proof is on you, before you pronounce that there is only one tradition or set of ways to meditate.