What is ego death?

Tripping will not bring out completely beyond the mind and beyond dimensions. The very experience is your ego. It is your mind. You will not see the Absolute through a trip.

When you see the Absolute, when you see Infinity and realize you are That which is beyond seeing, hearing, tasting, touching, knowing, thought, idea, concept, etc. That is going beyond the ego. It's like waking up.

You see the unmanifest Infinite Reality manifest and you watch as mind takes a single substance and fissures it into countless dream-ideas.

A shit load of 5-Meo-DMT might get rid of what you called "I" previously, but that does not mean that the "I" is truly gone. There are still very many more layers of "I" present. There is still experience.

Do you see what I mean? All I'll say about "me" is that I've experienced enough to be able to distinguish between Truth and delusion, and I care to help other people do the same. If you disagree with me, fine, but psychedelics aren't going to get you much of anywhere (fun as they may be)

Their real value lies in turning people on to exploring their true nature, and the nature of reality. That is their purpose. Theyre a catalyst to turning on the light- not the light.

 

Just because you have not experienced truth through psychedelics that's pretty bold of you to discredit our experience. That's like me saying to someone who claims to have seen or experienced god that it was just a delusion. There are many ways to reach and experience truth.

 

In the way of me just experiencing the bliss it was salvation as it was a means to end suffering in the form of an undercurrent of depression. No fun, no longer. There should be constant peace.

Forfun, perhaps then you see even the purest consciousness that can be experienced in a psychedelic state where your mind feels no separation as all stimulates, as part of the ego. I've kind of sort of been thinking that myself lately, that any self concept is shed at death. However maybe enlightenment is true moksha as you have literally reduced the ways you think of yourself to nothing, so you are dead in life(escaped the cycle of rebirth).

However I don't see that as enlightenment as I've learned and believed it to be. There is no balance of self when all has dropped. We can have moments of ego death, where we feel are beyond (even to the point where you cant recall), certainly with deep meditation or psychedelics. Beyond those walls I think there are energies circulating deep within that are effected by external stimuli. I disagree with your suggestion psychedelics can not break down those walls intensely but momentarily in a genuine way that lets one experience beyond self.

So however I do agree with something you said that there are various levels of the self, many have deep reaching layers right smack dab into your unconscious/subconscious archetypes. Although there is the constant bliss of the moment birthing from that very deep source there is a body serving any purpose in a reality, a concept of self is needed in the balance and certainly awareness of things that come to be your deep faith that certainly aligns you with dharma.

What is personally valuable to me is being able to realize the outermost layers that certainly lose any relevance to the experience of the deepest layers by realizing and experiencing the deepest layers. . Hence superficial people (I think).

Much of what we come to accept as the modern human social experience is to inflate or (either purposely or by personal evaluation) deflate the ego on these outermost levels.

I've come to realize why I have found myself on a path to living off the land, and why that is the only thing I feel semi comfortable for trying to visualize as my future. I think all else that was offered required so much irrelevant to self as I experienced it (even if it was a faint intuition at first) from feelings of childhood, when feeling the void on a clear blue sky day, or dosing.

 

It is when the concept of individuality no longer applies. There is no longer differentiation between anything. All appears to be one, like it is, and always has been.

 

We come from one, we can experience the one, but we are not one in "reality."

Again we do have to consider we have bodies and minds genetically so unique and they all are pieces of a puzzle. It's important to realize we come from it but it's also important to distinguish our individual experience and become aware of what is important to us.

A shell shattering experience can provoke us to reassess the deepest components of our feelings, which can certainly include your recognition of the infinite.

 

Part of the entreat of psychedelic "ego death" is that it's a sudden, irrevocable removal of the false dichotomies that seem to pervade the conventional truth of consensus reality. One of these false dichotomies lies in the illusion of the distinction between that which experiences and that which is experienced. So, in part, I agree with what you're saying. "You" will not see the Absolute through a trip. However, a dissolution of the experience of the inherent existence of the self can and does occur, in my experience. "You" dissolve into experience, experience dissolves into emptiness. That which remains at the death of the ego - Śūnyatā - pervades the remnants of "your" consciousness.

All this being said, I agree with you fundamentally.

Of course, discussing the nature of ultimate truth through the semantics of English language and under pretenses of conventional truth render the discussion an interesting exercise in futility. Regardless, the simultaneous, complementary existence of opposites allows us to converse from any infinite number of perspectives and still retain the truth therein related. The virtue of this prajñā invites us to remain open minded to each other's understanding, whether it reflects that which we have experienced ourselves or not. Admittedly, the idea of an "other" having an experience exclusive to his self or from your self can be just as misrepresentative of this understanding. That's the trouble in trying to use language constructed from the pretense of the inherent existence of the self to communicate that which is understood after the "death" of that self. And so the dialogue repeats ad infinitum.

Herein lies some of that truth.

 

:lurk5:

 

The pyramid comes to one peak. At the beginning there are infinite paths, but the closer to the goal one gets, the more the paths are all the same.

When you're dreaming, you think it's real until you wake up. You think psychedelics are Truth because you haven't experienced anything more real.

All I'm saying is that I've experienced both (at one point in my life thinking that I had experienced Truth through psychedelics AND later actually experiencing Truth through the classical means of single-minded inquiring into who the "I" was) and that one is completely different then the other.

What isn't being understood is that even knowing the entire universe to be your body is not going beyond the mind. That's a very expanded and purified state of mind, but it's still not beholding the Truth.

Truth is totally beyond creation. It's a state of pure being and non-being at the same time. It's self-obvious and is not justified, justifiable or knowable. It just is (but even saying that, is also not True, because it also is not).

All this is nothing but a dream-thought of God. There is no more real separation or objects here than there was in your dream from last night. The only thing that makes it real is the delusion that it and you are real.

 

The biggest delusion is the notion that we are separated from "Truth".

You don't need psychedelics to show you what's already there.

 

The fact that you seem to be inferring you know the pinnacle of the psychedelic experience and calling it 'fun' at the same time to me is incompatible. 'Fun' is certainly not a word I would use to describe my deeper journeys into psychedelic realms (or lack of realms).

I am fairly young, but i'm also pretty convinced I won't experience a higher truth then has already been experienced on some of my psychedelic voyages. I may experience something equal but of a different nature, but who knows i may prove myself wrong as time goes on.

Your previous post practically begged the question, if you thought you had experienced truth through psychedelics and found it to be false, and now you think have experienced truth through 'classical means' what makes you so sure you are right this time?

 

Forfun you are expressing opinion. You say psychedelics don't lead to a truth yet you say all paths lead to the same pinnacle of a pyramid. Well which is it?

Actually forget that....

It is clear that there are multiple ways to experience ego death and they are equally valid in leading someone. I can experience ego death in fluctuations throughout the day. Psychedelics just do it very intensely.

Edited...Also it is VERY silly to deny someone's experience from the basis of you having your own.

 

Oye.

If your ego had died then it wouldn't be back, would it?

That's why it's not dead, it's just thinned out, like I said.

If you want to remain ignorant, that's your prerogative.

And no one's experience was denied. They surely experienced whatever there is to be experienced. But experience of thinking the ego has died, is not the same as the ego actually dying. And my I experienced whatever is to be experienced from psychedelics. I think they are among man's greatest tools to begin to experience God. But don't mistake a tool for other than that.

It's like if you went to a model of Paris in Vegas vs. real Paris. You could swear up and down that you went to Paris and you could even describe certain things. And to a person who had never been to the real Paris, it would seem as if you had been. But if a Parisian was listening and started to question you, it would be apparent to him that you hadn't been to the real Paris, despite that your experience was that you did.

Anyhow, it's quite simple really. If you still experience sorrow, happiness, sadness, anger, lust, desire, want, attachment, etc. then your ego has not died. What's dead is dead is dead. My guess is that you have an attachment to psychedelics- now how could that be? You see, it's only a partial thinning of the ego.

If a mariner is sailing in extremely thick fog and the fog clears to where the visibility is 5 miles, which happens to be the furthest he's ever seen, it will seem like everything in the atmosphere is completely clear. It seems that way until it's more clear. Same thing with the ego/mind.

 

Yet you are still referring to yourself as 'I'? You are contradicting yourself, and by your definition, your ego has not died.

You didn't answer my question either. All those metaphors can be applied exactly to you as you are attempting to apply them to me.

 

Your idea doesn't change anything for anybody. So "ignorant"?
You do not know my beliefs from this discussion.

I think that's all they've been for any of us, tools for greater insight. It's your choice to follow through or not. Not just for fun then.

I think you may also be underestimating the power of psychedelics. It has the power to change thinking for extended periods of time by just its lasting action on the psyche.

No one is saying once you've had your ego dissolved you're enlightened and it's gone forever.

In my experience I found what I deemed not worth the energy.

We can strive to achieve nirvana, but yes it would involve so much beyond tripping. But can be helped with maybe.
I know by feeling that I am not enlightened but I have achieved a peace never before in my thinking that can be enhanced. So I won't deny what you said with your last metaphor.

Something or other something or other

 

a mere grammatical choice i assure you

 

haha, I'm attempting not to apply them to anyone. They're just being used as examples to give a vague illustration of the ideas being conveyed.

You seem to just want to argue for the sake of arguement. We have to use language to communicate. It would be long winded to say "the latent non-existent idea of me within."

Anyhow, to your question: when you wake up and see reality, you know it. It doesn't need any proof, it just is as it is. There isn't any description fitting, or anything that can be said about it, other than that.

Anyhow, the only aim was to help. Soon enough you'll get tired of psychedelics as anything more than a play thing. Everyone does

 

If you're happy now, then be happy of course, and that's wonderful. No sense in striving for something that you don't want.

Underestimating pyschedelics- Changes in thinking is not non-thinking. No ego=no thought (at least for the sense of conversation- there is still the residue as it were, which though distanced from the sense of being-ness, does not end except in its own time)

 

You're right in the context of the OP those effects do not apply to ego death.

I just don't think there is total ego death for a lifetime, that offers sanity.

So what are we speaking about, ego death or enlightenment?

I've believed before that an experience of ego death that lets you see the deepest layer of your being without interference is just an experience along the way to what say..the Bhagavad Gita describes. It's not any different.

 

Ego death is enlightenment. It seems you're underestimating the extent which ego is. Ego is what is called the world, the mind, thoughts, etc. That is all ego.

Remember that Arjuna wasn't enlightened, he only experienced God's true nature and was given the path to be united with the Absolute.

 

^ This! Forfun you're going all over the place with metaphors and contradictions, then making claims then backtracking on claims. How am I arguing for arguments sake? You say people who use psychedelics can't experience true(complete) ego death,and then you supply your metaphors, now you say they are not aimed at anyone. so I'm reading it as a continuous sentiment if its not that makes what you are trying to say even more confusing.

The simple truth is while one is breathing, one cannot function in a world
without some sort of ego. It goes completely against survival instincts. Everyone needs a separation between themselves and the other, to eat, to drink, to fuck, to drive, to work, to do most things. Lets say that you Even reach a higher ego dissolution through meditation, prayer or classical means than you do with psychedelics, Its still fleeting. In fact one could make a strong argument the more intact the ego is the better it is equipped for survival. Im not very religious or I don't know alot of spiritual text, but there seems to be a definite distinction between ego death and enlightenment.