What if?

Discussion in 'Globalization' started by gardener, Jun 17, 2006.

  1. gardener

    gardener Realistic Humanist

    What if after 09/11 the Amercian government instead of invading Afghanistan and Iraq had simply cleaned up the mess, buried their dead, and turned to world and said: "What have we done or said?", "How can we show you we are not monsters, or greedy pigs?" What do you think the world would look like now?

    Doesn't mean we couldn't have been united. We could all still have flown our flags, but we could have presented a human and humane face to the world. Doesn't preempt the idea of protecting our homeland, only means we wouldn't have resorted to a form of "terrorism" ourselves.

    We wouldn't have put our young people in a position, they are ill trained and prepared for...where they have shown they can perform poorly under stress, where their lives are only significant to their families, or the fact that they push a certain number over a benchmark number. What have we gained by the line we drew in the desert?
     
  2. LickHERish

    LickHERish Senior Member

    Since they perpetrated 911 in the first place, saying anything to the world would:

    1. Be irrelevant to the treason and mass murder committed

    and

    2. Be rather ignorant given the decades of:

    a. repeated illegal expansionistic military aggressions toward sovereign nation and covert CIA subversion of democratically elected governments;

    b. financial, training and armament support for right wing death squads throughout Latin America, Africa and South East Asia;

    c. economic blockades, coercion and colonialism again of many developing nations throughout Latin America, Africa and South East Asia through fraudulent "aid" mechanisms aimed solely at creating perpetual dependency and debt and poverty for billions of the world's population...

    Just to name but a few of Washington's "kind", "just", and "generous" acts toward the rest of the world.

    Only those who refuse to scrutinise our long-running history (that just in the 20th century alone) will fail to discover these facts for themselves.
     
  3. gardener

    gardener Realistic Humanist

    I realize we have done horrible things in Vietnam, Panama and many countries that the CIA and the Corporate powers have perpetrated, but why do we have to continue along the same lines? I am just throwing out an alternative that might have changed the world.

    Most americans feel military force is the only alternative. And military force most of the time is simply used to protect the financial interests of a few. Had we banded together as a country at the time of 09/11, we could have changed the face of the world.
     
  4. nirvana563

    nirvana563 Member

    Well it's not like the whole contry of Afghanistan and Iraq supported 9/11, it's just that the people that did it came from there.
     
  5. gardener

    gardener Realistic Humanist

    Actually according to reports most were Saudis, have we invaded Saudi Arabia? No, because they have agreements with Haliburton and Carlyle.
     
  6. littleplanet

    littleplanet Member

    America has never been a nation so divided on this issue -
    not since the days of the Vietnam war.
    When Washington talks about "hating our freedoms" and that
    "non-negotiable way of life" what they're really talking about
    is the freedom to exploit the most volatile commodity on the planet:
    oil.
    That non-negotiable way of life is the suburban middle-class
    consumer-driven lifestyle. (where and how two thirds of Americans live.)
    The most energy-inefficient drain on the
    planet's resources imaginable. And they're not backing off on it,
    rather ramping in up like there's no tomorrow - because that's where
    big biz makes it's money - that's what fuels the machine.

    The world doesn't hate America at all.
    What they hate is the industrial military complex - backed by all their
    transnational corporate buddies and looney-tuned goons in Washington.
    Not a bad thing to hate, actually.

    Until Americans get a bit more organized - enough to reject the idea that
    all this shit actually defines who they are as a nation, the carnival just
    rolls on.

    Sometimes I think that much of the world doesn't understand just what kind
    of power structure American people are up against - not just the rest of the
    world...but right there within their own borders.

    A long time ago the beauty of a free enterprise system that gave the world
    so much...got buried inside a corporate greed so insidious that it almost seems
    as if this is all that is left.
    I don't believe that for a second, and I think that's actually the majority of the
    population.

    So what if?
    What if the people fought back against this shit that is slowly strangling the body politic?
    Remember that more than half the polulation do not agree with what goes on in Washington.
    And since the last election, that number is growing.
     
  7. Grim

    Grim Wandering Wonderer

    It's becoming clear that some factions of the US government were involved in the orchestration and allowance of the 9/11 events.
    To that end, pleading to the world to make them see us better would be no different than blowing up varying countries. However taking a "What did we do wrong?" stance would have only earned us pity, whereas blowing others up has earned fear. Hatred too, but a whole lot of fear - whether it's admitted or not.
    So we chose to make the world fear us, instead of pity us. You can't rule the world with pity, after all.

    I think it's disgusting, and three cheers for the revolution.
     
  8. TokeTrip

    TokeTrip Senior Member

    Stupid thread; we didn't.
     
  9. gardener

    gardener Realistic Humanist

    I don't think by standing strong, burying our dead, and turning to the world and asking why... would have lead to pity. It would have lead to the understanding that the majority of the people in the US had no idea, that what global corporate interests were doing were reflecting badly on ourselves, to the point where innoncent lives were deemed expendable.

    To do what we have done in response has only lead to the opinion that we back these sort of things. Do we? I don't. "Smoke him out. ", "Dead or Alive" that's juvenile sh*t, that I never agreed with, and Bush hasn't followed up on. He said it to rile up the lowest common denominator, and it worked. His corporate friends are now making billions off this stupidity. And we are losing our children, as are the Iraqis.
     
  10. Pressed_Rat

    Pressed_Rat Do you even lift, bruh?

    And 7 of the 19 (not 14) are still alive and well, living in the Middle East, according the the BBC and other sources.
     
  11. Lodui

    Lodui One Man Orgy

    I'm sure Bin Ladens heart would have grown three sizes that day.
     
  12. gardener

    gardener Realistic Humanist

    Can you prove he had anything to do with 9/11? and even if he did why haven't we captured him. I thought we were going to "smoke him out", and get him "dead or alive", what happened to this administration's priorities? Just another misleading comment like the "weapons of mass destruction"?

    And if you want to believe that we haven't been hit since 9/11, who sent the anthrax, and what about the plane in Queens? Someone telll what was behind both those events and I might have more faith in this president.

    We went to war with Afganstan and Iraq becuase Haliburton and Carlyle want an oil pipeline protected for them by the American military, without the intrusive debts owed to the Germans, French and Russians. Grow up folks.
     
  13. Lodui

    Lodui One Man Orgy

    It's already been thoroughly proven. The only people who don't think so are a few loner males between the ages of 18-30 in the bowels of the web.
    They try and shoot holes in the theory, constantly repeat things which have been proven false, and won't listen to any disent that they get their opinions from a few crazy idiots from the web. They never do any work to fact check what these people say.

    Bin Laden admitted to it several times, we can trace the 19 hijackers back to Afghanistan. We know they met with Bin Laden and went to his camp. We know he gave them money. We know they went to America. We know they got on the planes. We know they took over the planes. And we know they crashed 4 planes.

    What the hell does Iraq have to do with 9/11? Bin Ladens war with us would continue either way, and an appology doesn't get rid of a declaration of holy war.

    America has made many mistakes, but we have nothing to appologize to a mass murderer who orchastrated an attack on Americans.

    He's a vile racist religious theocrat murderer.
     
  14. gardener

    gardener Realistic Humanist

    How many thousand have the US killed in Iraq and Afghanistan so far?

    And perhaps you'd like to run the numbers I don't see Afghanistan mentioned anywhere:

    Only that Bush and his entire administration kept bringing it up when he wanted to start the war in Iraq. You say it doesn't matter any more. Think they will retract their previous statements?

    That's exactly how I feel about Bush and his administration. He's trying to run his own "holy" war and I for one won't buy into it.
     
  15. Lodui

    Lodui One Man Orgy

    Iraq doesn't matter when compared to the war on terror. It's clearly a seperate war.

    And the war isn't aginst Afghan people because we wanted to get them back. It was to stop a government which had created the largest external refugee population in present history with barbaric tactics from harboring killers to prevent their attacks.

    We haven't caught Bin Laden because he's hiding in Mountains in a soverign state which doesn't have much to any control of that part of the population.

    Your opinions on Bush don't matter in repsect to Bin Laden. I don't like him either. That doesn't make Bin Laden good. The enemy of my enemy sure as hell isn't my friend.
     
  16. gardener

    gardener Realistic Humanist

    Bin Laden and his family are old time friends of the Bush family, time to wake up Junior. El Quaeda was an excuse to pull off the agenda of the "New American Century". He's not going to be captured, it wouldn't meet their needs.

    He's hiding in Pakistan, a country that has nuclear power, and to which we give all kinds of monetary and military support. Grow up.

    I ask again how many of the hijackers were Afghanis?
     
  17. Lodui

    Lodui One Man Orgy

    Stop being so intellectually lazy and do a small amount of research.

    You aren't a skeptic. Skeptic review data and draw decisions based on information. 9/11 truth movement people document a few lies and facts which seem to contedn with an official story and make up some fiction to go along with it.
     
  18. gardener

    gardener Realistic Humanist

    Give me some links to your data that will prove what I have read wrong. Show me your president is the next coming. I don't believe it. Prove to me that his main interest is bring democracy and freedom to area. From what I see he is bring Haliburton and Carlyle into control of this area.
     
  19. Lodui

    Lodui One Man Orgy

    What does being a nuclear power have to do with having vast mountainous borders run by warlords?

    Narcissism and skeptiscism this severe can be a sign of mental illness. You should talk to a doctor.
     
  20. gardener

    gardener Realistic Humanist

    I only bring up nuclear armament because President Bush and the Project for a New American Century are threatening Iran because they want nuclear power plants. Whereas Bin Laden is hiding out in a country who already has this capability. If Bin Laden is our number one target, why don't we capture him? We support Pakistan, why do they continue to hide him? Why do we continue to allow them to hide him?

    I am definitely a skeptic, but I don't think anything I've said would prove "narcissism" is this a new word you learned?
     

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