What happens when you scrap the welfare state

Nobody who is sane, is advocating scrapping the Welfare State.

The reforms proposed will allow the Welfare State to continue to meet the obligations of the past.

Piling on additional undertakings and guaranties is a recepie to crash the system.

Our politicians don't have the courage to boost taxes to pay for it all.

 

Actually, no one who is sane is encouraging the welfare state.

There is no true "reforms;" It's just a way of booting Americans off of government aid, without appearing too desperate to do so.

The problem is we've been spending endlessly for too long, printed too much, spread ourselves too thin and, disregarded our basic founding principles in the name of government "assistance," which has only made people dependent on government, and has given government unfettered access into the personal life of Hundreds of millions of Americans.

"Sane" people realize that. The crazies you need to watch out for, is those with empty rhetoric of how government will protect you, pay your bills and genuinely do something for people instead of businesses; However, common sense tells any "sane" person to look at their track record, and it is an utter failure all across the board.

And the policies of Democrat/Republican Politicians have done nothing to cut spending, stop the military-industrial complex, fix our devaluing currency, make serious payments toward the debt etc etc etc. I would even argue that Liberalism/Democrats rely on the status quo, to continue living above our means, and pretend that nothing is wrong, as the corporate government steals the rest of our money and shreds the last paragraph of the Constitution.

But oh, I guess some violence sympathizers calling me "insane" should hurt my feelings enough, so I stop believing in PEACE, NON-VIOLENCE and HUMAN RIGHTS. I guess it is "insane," to not support a criminal racket, which forces it's will onto others. It's "insane" to denounce murder, government or, theft. If the government does it, automatically Liberals paint it with the broad brush of "Greater Good." When, I'd argue the alleged "greater good," is what's hurting this country. Us paying the government money is part of the status quo. How the hell, does that help us?? It doesn't. It's jargon from a bunch of people who just don't care enough to look into politicians or their policies, they just want to shove it down everyone's throats, regardless what "it" is.

With Obama...
Healthcare,
Gun Laws,
Taxes,
Drone Strikes,
Constitutional Violations,
Getting involved in foreign "civil" wars,
Obama being above the law,
ETC


This is something Liberals want people to just "deal with," but it isn't quite so simple; Government derives their power from the consent of the governed, and the government is rapidly losing credibility.


So when you say stuff like "no sane person wants to cut welfare" it shows me how a percentage of Americans are fixated on this idea of "robbing from the rich,and giving to the poor" based on nothing but GREED.

But yet, the government just takes from the Middle Class and gives it to the very rich, and a small percentage to the very poor. How is this helping? It's not! We're bleeding the middle class dry!

People who are relying on government to save us, is not looking at the big picture. The government caused this mess to begin with! That should be the first red flag..

Then secondly, Liberals love to claim people would be strving on the street without government, when obviously that is not the case. Even this article admitted it would do wonders for the economy, which allows the wealth to spread. It creates jobs and encourages spending, and people may have to work for a living or, find a charity. It may not be perfect, but it's not going out and catching your own food like one would be obligated to do when we were nomads. No one would starve, and we would save money.

I did say we should cut warfare spending first, but I do believe welfare should begin to sputter out, and we should work on rebuilding our economy and making citizens independent of government help, and able to live without it.

 

They certainly didn't. Actually, we've seen the greatest transfer of wealth to the top 1%, under Liberal spending and taxes.

Because they found a more undetectable way of doing things- hidden inflation, raises price and, manipulating the stock market/ value of the dollar.

17 trillion dollars, (20 grand per person,) is hardly what I consider "no taxes."

And not that I support what you're saying- but even in the most extreme 94%, it was geared toward wealthy people. Today the wealthy get tons of tax breaks and incentives to continue the satus quo, like; Bailouts, government subsidize and, laws which are made to benefit them.

Besides, historical injustice doesn't make something write. Just as the way Obama claims that he can murder people, cause presidents have done it before. Taxes aren't extremely high, but the working class and middle class Americans are struggling to get on their feet.

My sister and her boyfriend, both have a working-class factory job, which in the 1960's, would make enough to own a house, cars and live comfortably; Today however, they are struggling just to get by.

Wages are the same as about 30 years ago, only prices have gone up tremendously. This is due to government inflation and over-taxation.

Even corporate taxes, just get pushed down to the consumer. Companies are gaining unimaginably with government assistance and force.

Why would they want you to know about waste? Yeah, it help candidate Obama come up with fancy rhetoric, but in the end, he's failed to cut spending and has continued the Bush Doctrine, both at home and overseas.

Actually, society was based on the American Rule of Law, maybe I should be telling you that if you don't like our founding Principles and Basic Human Rights, you should move to England, or some other Monarchy which is above the Law of the Land. That's not meant to be the system in America, and people will get fed up and rebel the more government imposes it's forceful will on peaceful individuals.

Plus, there's hypocrisy in what you said, and I want to point it out; It's obvious that Liberal spending HELPS corporate America and the 1%, our government spending has nearly doubled every year since 2001, and the people profiting, are those in the defense industry and Military-Industrial Complex.

To think people should surrender their freedom to government for security or comfort is un-American, and totally contrary to our Founding Principles. We are being spied on, killed by government, imprisoned for decades for victimless crimes and, forced to pay for it all-- But to some people, the government is excused for any wrong doing, because they are allegedly there to "help," and they can and do, justify any inhumanity, in the name of the "Greater Good."

*cough*

Mostly because I've not found any News Stations Liberal enough for your tastes; The "proof" is all around us, we're essentially paying Countries like Israel, just for being our friends. And most of that money goes to rich people. Not only that- but, we are supplying serious Automatic Weapons to Jihadist Rebels in Syria. Our money is wasted everywhere, mostly on military spending. But if the government cut 90% of the military, the dollar would crash because faith in the dollar is based on our protection of small oil-wielding middle eastern countries.


But hey, here's a couple links for the hell of it...

http://www.thenewamerican.com/usnews/politics/item/11186-the-gsa-and-government-waste

http://www.thefiscaltimes.com/Artic...vernment-Is-Wasting-More-Money-than-You-Think

To a degree, it all ties in together. Taxes keep going up, as the dollar devalues. (Which makes prices rise on everyday household items.) However, the Middle/working class are making no more than 40 years ago, despite the perpetual printing- that is precisely what is hurting those individuals.

If you're talking about banking interest rates, the dollar would actually be worth less for an individual that saves it, regardless of the little bit they gain for saving it.

The government is severely flawed in the notion that they can commit violence on peaceful people and call it "freedom." As long as we continue down this Police State caused by our corporate Government, we don't have the Right to call ourselves "free."

"The power under the Constitution will always be in the people. It is entrusted for certain defined purposes, and for a certain limited period, to representatives of their own choosing; and whenever it is executed contrary to their interest, or not agreeable to their wishes, their servants can, and undoubtedly will, be recalled."~George Washington~

 

Yes, it has just been a string of regulations and social programs since the 40s and 50s, when the markets were free, taxes were low and there were absolutely no public works programs. How I long for a return to the free market system.

Too bad the corporations had to come along and ruin everything, thanks to that communist-loving Liberal Ronald Reagan and his socialist 'trickle down' economics.

 

Actually, that's not true. I've explained to you many times why I feel the way I do, and the reasoning behind it. It just starts getting irritating because we run around in circles.

I'm ready for another round though...

None of that is true. It's just your assumption of what I want. I don't want to punish someone just because they're rich and made something of themselves. But as far as those who feed off the taxpayer and use government force to carry out there agenda, under my system companies would be much more liable to the consumer, and bound by the laws we have against bribery, fraud and other. This is much more damaging to the bad corporations than the current status quo, or a little more taxes. (They have loopholes to stash their money anyway..)

There has recently been dozens of unreported oil spills (NH or NC I believe,) there was also a company allowing cancer-causing petcoke to blow in the wind (in Detroit/Canada,) Monsanto has been protect (by government) from any type of liablity for their own products (which are not labeled.)

This country is in serious distress, and Liberalism doesn't even scratch the surface of the problems we have. Most of our problems stem from an over-blown government system that works for corporate interests. There are MANY stupid policies in place that I've shown.

Many of you wont even watch Fox BUSINESS, but this is a good example of how so many American regulations are dumb and geared against small businesses and American citizens...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nBiJB8YuDBQ"]John Stossel's Illegal Everything - YouTube

I can say the same thing to do. I believe that freedom works when we did try it, and companies being liable and unable to manipulate a centralized federal government, would help us tremendously.

In America today, it costs 7 thousand dollars just to start a business, and soon people will have to pay more taxes on everyone, and health insurance for everyone, which will undoubtedly cause companies to fire people, and pay less in the future.

What I believe in creates jobs, and allows individuals to flourish. The current system is geared to help the 1%, my system would help everyone. You have interesting opinions, Balbus, but a lot of what you say is based off of assumption and nothing more.

More taxes hurt the middle class and working class. The rich get off very easily considering they own 80% of the wealth; That is due to government bailouts and benefits.I don't need to prove that- it's obvious. The Bankers stockpiled that bailout money, and paid it off just from the interest of letting it sit, meanwhile they fired employees, and stopped giving out loans.

I think people who trust the government to fix the problems which they've constructed, is totally insane. Even Obama said "The definition of insanity, is trying the same things, with the same folks, and expecting different results." He went on to go insane during his presidency; He re-elected Ben Bernake for the Federal Reserve, and more Bankers and Lobbyist than any other president in our history. Walstreet won twice, and I'm still arguing with echos of Obama empty rhetoric of his election years.

Look at what's being done! The problem isn't that we're not giving enough to government, but that the government would rather spend it on spying on us, than fix the system and allow the people to prosper.

Today, the average American spends more on government, than they do on their home. Think about that when you say my beliefs help the rich. Capitalism allows people to make something of themselves, and create jobs in the process. I don't think tax cuts should be geared toward the "job creators" by any means. But I think if we were to truly cut all the waste, the Fair tax would be more than enough for Humanitarian efforts. (But, I think that should be taken over by the state or town governments, and not a federal entity.) Not only that, but the Fair Tax would also save billions of dollars in man hours.

The Federal Government has become too corrupted by violating the Constitution, killing citizens and, planning terrorist attacks in America. It should be obvious to people at this point, that the Federal Government is going after any dissonance to their Un-Lawful, Un Constitutional and, inhumane abuses of power.

This is especially obvious in the case of Bradley Manning being torchered and imprisoned, merely for exposing U.S war crimes. (The Helicopter shooting citizens with grochery bags.)

America has become the world bully. We scare people into submission. We trade starving people food for their oil and other natural resources (Look up 'iraq food for oil program')

You support world governance, which also involves the biggest corporations distributing off the last of all natural resources world-wide. That is what America's government, and the United Nations have become- a haven for corporate criminals who desire power and control, and money is just a bonus. Those are the individuals controlling our government, and the biggest problem today.

Liberals don't scratch the surface, because they like to pretend force = peace, like we can force everyone to comply, to impose total government on the people, and leave them defenseless. That, to me, sounds much more insane than following the basic Rule of Law, Human Rights and allowing individuals to do what they want with their body or life, (as long as you aren't hurting anyone, or damaging/stealing property.)

 

I'm not defending the republicans either, and that should be obvious. But yes, since the 50's the government has expanded rapidly, putting more and more wealth in the hands of government, and their corporate buddies.

Think logically about it- Let's say you work, and you pay 150$ a week to government. A lot of that goes to the military (which continues the fake system of wealth,) and a small amount, goes to humanitarian efforts and, a bunch goes overseas as well. Wouldn't people do better, if that wealth was localized? if that 150$ went to fixing their own roads or schools, instead of being federally distributed, and being wasted on over-paid employees, spying and the whole military-industrial complex built around it.

You don't seem to have a very long attention span. (you usually write one-liner defenses that don't even scratch the surface of the issues.)

But try to watch this all the way through.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=KNZCA6FmQqo#t=132

 

So you're blaming the government for not doing anything about this, and you think that a weaker government is going to lead to LESS of this? WHY would the companies want to clean up their oil spills if there are literally NO regulations on the environment, and NO organizations to hold the corporations to ANY kind of standard?

Why would Monsanto have to face any liability if there were literally no restrictions on his produce?

You are so backwards it hurts.

 

I'm just not big on going through the dozen ridiculous statements you make in every single post and writing epic replies, especially since it's like arguing with a wall.

You have a ridiculously shallow vision of government-- both what it is, how it works, and what it could be. Your entire argument seems to consist of posting American political scandals and libertarian conspiracies as if the US is the only country in the world and the only available options are a corrupt, warlike government or no government at all. You are constantly changing the argument as if anyone who supports government loves everything that Obama does and wants to steal your money from you... and are completely ignorant of anything outside of your own political system and all of this 'America is #1! Go freedom!' mumbo jumbo.

I don't even know why I keep arguing with you... we're not even capable of having an actual discussion.

 

You don't get it. The largest corporations are in bed with the government to the point that they're one and the same. Regulations don't do shit except hurt small businesses. If you think the government is looking out for anyone but themselves, you're naive.

With less government you would have less corruption and more accountability, so then maybe regulations WOULD work in benefit of people.

The idea that more government will keep corporations in check is fucking retarded, especially in light of the fact that the opposite is happening as government becomes bigger and bigger.

How many people in Obama's cabinet have connections with Monsanto?

 

stupid regulations do not help citizens flourish. There are cases of farmers being charged 100 grand per DAY, for having the wrong tree in their yard. What does it hurt if a little kid sets up a lemonade stand? Or someone has a store from their garage? That is more than regulation, it is limitations on basic freedoms.

and I've said many times, you are not able to steal, bribe, damage property or hurt people under my system. If someone is polluting, stealing water, putting toxic chemicals in food or the enviorment, lawyers would take that case, and only charge if you win, because companies are liable today. But I want MORE liability in the way of charging these companies to where they are discouraged from letting it happen in the first place- but that can only be accomplished by an educated consumer; Do you really think a USDA agent checking 1 in 200 cows, protects us from mad cow decease? Even the EPA fails to make substantial punishments for crimes commited, and most of the worse corporate scumbags would be jailed for bribery, and other laws that are already in place, but overlooked by government, because they are being controlled by corporate giants, and not the people.

And contrary to what you believe, the government is never going to fix it, because they're making too much money doing it. You seem to think government is the good guy, and that's a crazy notion, to me.

They've done so many bad things, that it overshadows the whole matrix they set in front of you. You believe taxing more will help, but it only helps the poor. It only creates government jobs, and a greater burden of debt place on the middle and working class families, who pay more into the pot percentage wise than the rich or poor.

But I guess I understand why it's so difficult to talk to you- you're like the Bush Supporters when he was leaving office. Obama's at 41% on CNN polls..

"George W. Bush also stood at 41% approval in CNN polling at the same point in December 2005. Bill Clinton was at 56% in December 1997 and Ronald Reagan was at a lofty 63% in December 1985.
The poll was conducted for CNN by ORC International December 16-19, with 1,035 adults nationwide questioned by telephone. The survey's overall sampling error is plus or minus three percentage points."



You support a war monger and a would-be dictator. He's already killed citizens, innocent children and, tore up the Constitution. I'll be surprised if he does leave office. He's already changed the Constitution so much, he might just legalize 4 terms again, and his obsessed fans probably would adore him all the same, because they have no concept of Human Rights or basic freedom from tyranny, as long as it's their guy in office, and not the other guy, they blindly follow.

Government has become a big show, all leading to the same ends. More taxes, more government, more spying, more war, etc. What Liberals like you believe just perpetuates the military-industrial complex Imo; No one here has been able to defend that, and that is because your candidate has, and he has also imposed on our basic Human Rights, Declared Martial Law, made an unconstitutional regime change and, legalized propaganda and indefinite detention of American Citizens. I mean, I'm sorry but I find it hard to believe that you really believe this theatrical propaganda; It's all a big show! Obama was never the "lesser evil" he was the selected winner, and both sides were paid for by the same elite bankers.

It was Dr. Ron Paul that the Troops overwhelmingly supported, and it's because they are sick of these abuses of power too!

 

I DO get it.

What I don't agree with is the idea that all politicians are selfish and corrupt, or that there's some massive conspiracy. I think the problem is that even if they wanted to stand up to the corporations they are too weak to do so, mostly because the government has been surrendering its power to the corporations for decades. It's deregulation that has led to the economy being so dependent on the corporations, and that has forced the government to act primarily in the interests of the corporations.

The idea that less government is somehow magically going to get rid of the corporations is even more retarded, considering that the trend has been towards less intervention in the markets and DEregulation for the past 30+ years and is actually what caused the corporations to grow so large in the first place.

How are you going to have less corruption and more accountability without a government, exactly? Who is going to hold the corporations accountable?

 

You're focusing only on the 'stupid' regulations and not the regulations that could actually prevent this kind of thing from happening.

Why not?

What world are you even living in? How are people going to make money if the corporations own all of the land and are free to pay people whatever they want? How are people going to be able to afford lawyers if there's no minimum wage? Why wouldn't the corporations simply buy up all of the land, if there's nothing to stop them from doing so? How is a weak government ever going to be able to hold anyone accountable? Why would a lawyer agree to sue a corporation if losing the case meant they've just wasted their time and will receive absolutely no money from anyone?

You have literally offered no explanation of how your 'system' is going to bring about your utopian society... you've simply insisted over and over that it will happen and then gone on ridiculous tangents attacking Obama and 'liberals'. Post ONE post without talking about liberals/Obama/America and simply focusing on HOW your libertarian system is going to work and I'll start taking you seriously.

So who is going to pay people to check every single cow, if there's no government funding? Where is the company that checks for mad cow disease going to get its funding if not from taxes? Why would the corporations fund organizations that could potentially lose them billions of dollars? Why would they pay people enough for them to be able to afford to pay these organizations that will hold them accountable? How are people going to be able to afford to pay these companies to protect them if the companies aren't being subsidized by taxes on the wealthy? They would have to pay MORE just to hire the companies than they ever would have paid in taxes!

 

An E-du-ca-ted con-sum-er. I've said it like 50 times already, WE need to hold corporations accountable, and know what they are up to, cause government is never going to do it for us. Like Rat said, the government is in bed with corporations; They are not going to change anything because they have become the strong-arm of the corporations. Perhaps they were unwillingly forced into it, but we've given control and power to a few elite groups, and they control 80% of our wealth, because we've allowed them to obtain it in the name of helping us. But we're not getting near what we pay for. If our money was localized, we abolished all these crazy taxes and only implemented the Fair Tax, the money would be back in the hands of the people, and in turn, strengthen the economy more so than giving it to banks.

Unfortunately, the government has become a criminal racket, that is more worried about the profits of an elite few, and no one else. The way getting rid of the Federal Government and localizing governments would work, is because corporations would no longer have a system which protects them from scrutiny. Companies like Mansanto, are not above the law, and neither is government. A lot of what corporations and government does violates our founding principles; Libertarians are about strict adherence to it aswell, because it protects us from dictators and oligarchs, who disregard the will of the citizens.

Read the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution for once, then talk to me.

I feel like you just covering your ears, and pretending everything's fine under the democrat- Even as he has violated the Constitution more than Bush could dream! If Bush did that, they would drag him to his impeachment proceedings by his hair, but the black democrat is (for no good reason,) allowed to disregard the Founding Principles and Freedoms of a so-called "free" country.

You support that guy, and try to say all politicians aren't evil. Maybe not "all" of them are bad, but those in the two party system are typically just a part of the show. I only like Ron Paul, Dennis Kusinish(sp?) and, Jesse Ventura isn't bad either.

But as far as punishing all "rich"people" goes; I'm pretty sure those who manipulate the government to force their will on others and stand above the law, is a little more important to punish, than say, the Johnson & Johnson family. Liberalism doesn't distinguish the difference- They just hate all rich people, and that's a big fallacy, when we have problems that Liberalism doesn't even begin to touch on.

 

So--rules and regulations on corporations, or not?

 

Sure, but what good do regulations do if the people doing the regulating are in bed with the corporations? What good have regulations done up to this point? The only thing I have seen regulations do is put smaller businesses out of business.

 

No, the government has not been surrendering their power to corporations for decades. As I already stated, the two are in bed together. That is the problem. "Deregulation" has nothing to do with the government being so dependent on the corporations -- corporatism has. Corporatism as in the government and the corporations being in bed together.

I never said anything about NO government. I said less government. Clearly the bigger the government gets, the more power the corporations get. Again, it's corporatism.

 

I think you're refering to walmart. Between Reagan , the Bushes, Clinton, the supreme court and the rest of the anti-reg forces, they pretty much have wiped out any semblance of a strong middle class in favor of the "corporations are people" money from the 1%. The problem with so much money in the hands of a few is the inordinate power over us ALL that comes with it. They now own the political system and can do just about whatever they want.

 

What does this have to do with the government? Is the government forcing you to shop at Wal-mart? HOW are you going to hold the corporations accountable?

Yes, you've said it, but you haven't actually explained anything.

Without going on and on about how awful government is, if it were possible, don't you think it would be better to just reroute the money from wasteful/destructive programs into constructive/efficient ones?

 

The fact that some people are incapable of seeing how awful government is makes it impossible/useless to debate with them, since they will only see solutions that entail government intervention while failing to see that most of the problems that exist in the world are a direct result of government.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ixNPplo-SU"]Reagan Government is not the solution to our problem government IS the problem - YouTube

^Does this sound like anyone in this thread?

And there's a timeline of deregulation in this reading:

http://www.cepr.net/documents/publications/dereg-timeline-2009-07.pdf

Corporatism and deregulation go hand in hand.