What EXACTLY does PUTIN want?

Discussion in 'Politics' started by GrayGuy57, Feb 7, 2023.

  1. Piobaire

    Piobaire Village Idiot

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    “One year and one week ago—on February 17th, 2022—I warned this council that Russia was planning to invade Ukraine,” Secretary of State Antony Blinken told the United Nations Security Council Ministerial Meeting on Ukraine Sovereignty and Russian Accountability today.

    “I said that Russia would manufacture a pretext, and then use missiles, tanks, soldiers, cyber attacks to strike pre-identified targets, including Kyiv,” Blinken continued, “with the aim of toppling Ukraine’s democratically elected government. Russia’s representative—the same representative who will speak today—called these, and I quote, ‘groundless accusations.’

    “Seven days later, on February 24th, 2022, Russia launched its full-scale invasion.”

    When Putin’s initial attack failed to give him control of Ukraine, Blinken continued, “he called snap referenda in four occupied parts of Ukraine, deported Ukrainians, bussed in Russians, held sham votes at gunpoint, and then manipulated the results to claim near unanimous support for joining the Russian Federation.”

    “Over the last year,” Blinken said, “Russia has killed tens of thousands of Ukrainian men, women, and children; uprooted more than 13 million people from their homes; destroyed more than half of the country’s energy grid; bombed more than 700 hospitals, 2,600 schools; and abducted at least 6,000 Ukrainian children—some as young as four months old—and relocated them to Russia.

    “And yet, the spirit of the Ukrainians remains unbroken; if anything, it’s stronger than ever.”

    Blinken’s remarkable speech told the history of Russia’s 2022 invasion of Ukraine, then highlighted that the world community has come together to stand behind Ukraine and the principles of the United Nations Charter that make all countries safer and more secure: “No seizing land by force. No erasing another country’s borders. No targeting civilians in war. No wars of aggression.”

    He noted that the war had caused hardship around the globe, but the “vast majority” of states in the United Nations have condemned Russia’s violations of the U.N. Charter, including 141 who voted for a resolution along those lines just yesterday.

    When Putin tried to use hunger as a weapon to end sanctions, more than 100 countries stepped up to bring down world grain prices; when Putin tried to use energy as a weapon, the rest of the world redirected national gas supplies so that the countries he was targeting could keep their people warm, and Europe worked hard to end its dependence on Russian energy.

    Blinken said that if we do not defend the basic principles of the U.N. Charter, “we invite a world in which might makes right, the strong dominate the weak. That’s the world this body was created to end.”

    While everyone—especially Ukraine—wants peace, he said, that peace must be durable, not simply an excuse to let Russia rest, rearm, and relaunch the war. As Ukraine president Volodymyr Zelensky has outlined, any peace must honor Ukraine’s territorial sovereignty. Putin has rejected this condition out of the box, saying that Ukraine must accept his “annexation” of Ukraine’s territories.

    Blinken reminded his listeners that not everything in the world has two sides. “In this war, there is an aggressor and there is a victim,” he said. “If Russia stops fighting and leaves Ukraine, the war ends. If Ukraine stops fighting, Ukraine ends. The fact remains: One man—Vladimir Putin—started this war; one man can end it.”

    When Russia and its defenders say the ongoing war is diverting resources from others in need, Blinken said, “look at Moscow’s actions” and look at the numbers. Last year, the U.S. contributed $13.5 billion in food aid and funded more than 40% of the World Food Program’s budget. Russia pays less than 1% of that budget.

    Blinken went on: “Based on the latest UN figures, the United States donates over nine times as much as Russia to UN peacekeeping. We donate 390 times as much as Russia to UNICEF. We give nearly a thousand times as much as Russia to the UN Refugee Agency.”

    Blinken reminded his listeners that the atrocities we are seeing Russians commit in Ukraine are not normal. “Bucha is not normal,” he said. “Mariupol is not normal. Irpin is not normal. Bombing schools and hospitals and apartment buildings to rubble is not normal. Stealing Ukrainian children from their families and giving them to people in Russia is not normal.

    “We must not let President Putin’s callous indifference to human life become our own.”

    Today, the leaders of the international Group of Seven, known as the G7, met virtually with Zelensky. The G7 includes Canada, France, Germany, Italy, Japan, the United Kingdom and the United States, as well as the European Union.

    The statement they issued echoed Blinken’s speech, then went on to pledge to continue food and humanitarian aid as countries suffer from the war, and to continue to design sanctions to make sure those countries continue to have access to food and fertilizers. The G7 leaders expressed “profound sympathy” for those affected by the “horrifying earthquakes in Türkiye and Syria” and pledged continued support.

    “Above all,” they said, “our solidarity will never waver in standing with Ukraine, in supporting countries and people in need, and in upholding the international order based on the rule of law.”

    The Biden administration today announced $2 billion in military aid to Ukraine, including drones, communications equipment, HIMARS rockets, and 155-millimeter artillery ammunition, while the G7 has increased its 2023 support for Ukraine to $39 billion, and both Germany and Sweden committed to sending more Leopard 2 tanks.

    The deputy chair of Russia’s security council, former president Dmitry Medvedev, said today that Russia planned to “push the borders of threats to our country as far as possible, even if these are the borders of Poland.” Poland is a member of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO), meaning an attack on it would be an attack on the rest of NATO, including the United States.

    At a press conference in Kyiv today, Zelensky said: “Victory will be inevitable. I am certain there will be victory.”

    “We have everything for it. We have the motivation, certainty, the friends, the diplomacy. You have all come together for this. If we all do our important homework, victory will be inevitable.”


    Heather Cox Richardson, Feb. 24th
     
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2023
    GrayGuy57 likes this.
  2. Intrepid37

    Intrepid37 Banned

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    The nazis running Ukraine threatened to kill Zelensky if he negotiated for peace. This has been the case ever since Ukraine's democratically-elected government was ousted by the U.S. backed military coup in 2014. NATO is an existential threat to Russia and that is deliberate. It was always understood that Russia would have to fight back eventually, and that's precisely what NATO and the U.S. war machine wanted. The continuous persecution and murder of Ukrainians who had supported the previous properly-elected government - and almost all of those Ukrainians were Russian-speaking citizens - had to be dealt with by Russia. If Zelensky wasn't such a coward, he would have stepped down rather than allow the nazis to boss him into supporting their terrorism.

    But, then again, he was probably convinced that with the U.S. backing the nazis, he might be able to survive best by playing the part he's been playing.

     
  3. Wally Pitcher

    Wally Pitcher Members

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    I really think that this a waste of time to respond to you, but please consider the following: Putin wants to leave the following legacy of re-creating the Soviet Union, run by an autocratic dictator and dominating Europe. He and his predecessors have systematically removed native people from the old regions and replaced them with ethnic Russians in order to change the demographics. Russian speaking citizens in Ukraine, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia and Crimea are all plants from the old soviet regime. Crimean Tartars have been redistributed all over Russia and cannot move back to their homeland. Zelensky was elected by the people without any American help. Putins lap dog who was appointed by Putin fled like a sissy little girl abandoning his glorious palace in Ukraine. Putin thought he had it made when Trump (Americas El Duce) was elected president. Unfortunately Putin could not influence the 2020 election enough to put the Lying Jackass back into the white house. Calling Zelinsky a Nazi is a clear example that you are brainwashed and need to go Russia and kiss Putins Butt.
     
  4. tikoo

    tikoo Senior Member

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    Russia wants the Crimea, its navy base in the Black Sea. And somewhat more land to the north, not much. A deal
    can be struck. West Ukraine may join the EU.
     
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  5. GrayGuy57

    GrayGuy57 Members

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    It will be interesting to see how this all plays out.

    So much is at stake......

    "Live long and prosper"
     
  6. Tyrsonswood

    Tyrsonswood Senior Moment Lifetime Supporter

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    It's "not much" to you because it's not your home... Had you been born and raised there as a Ukrainian you might see things differently when Putin fired missiles at your grandparent's apartment building...
     
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  7. tikoo

    tikoo Senior Member

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    What Russia does not want is Western Ukraine and its ornery Cossacks whose President is the Joker. Don't make me cry.
    The lunatics will have their missile defense system no matter what, and some war heroes.
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2023
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  8. M_Ranko

    M_Ranko Straight edge xXx

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    Good good, Ivan. Good little troll. 8 rubles have been deposited to your account. Hey, how's the weather in Saint Petersburg (that's russia, not Florida)?

    Wrong. putin wants to have it all. And then he wants to proceed to Ukraine's neighbors, Moldova and Poland. putin's game is conquest, and he's out for blood.
     
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  9. Intrepid37

    Intrepid37 Banned

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  10. MollyCuddled

    MollyCuddled Members

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    Ukraine is a sovereign nation, a democracy albeit a corrupt one. Russia, a corrupt autocracy, has signed numerous international treaties (Helsinki, Paris, etc) allowing any nation to make any political and strategic alignments it wants. This invasion is straight up imperialism, an attempt to reclaim some old Soviet glory and stop the spread of American influence in the region

    Ukraine is definitely winning and it’s true Russia vastly underestimated the Ukrainian resistance but the ultimate outcome is still up in the air. What happens when China starts aiding Russia? How long can Ukraine count on western aid? Russia is in a tough spot in part because of their proximity. They can’t use nukes without getting the fallout at the Kremlin, only ~500 miles away. Continued war crimes just encourage further western aid in terms of weapons. What’s the support internally like for war in Russia? How does that change over time? I don’t think anyone knows how this ends at this point
     
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  11. M_Ranko

    M_Ranko Straight edge xXx

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    Speaking of which... According to Oryx, a blog that keeps track of russia's equipment losses in this war, russia has so far lost so many tanks (an estimated 1700 over the course of this year), they will run out functional tanks if they keep losing them at the currently estimated rate of about 140 tanks per month.

    Counting Down: List Of Russian Army Equipment Not Yet Destroyed In Ukraine - Oryx

    According to The Economist, as well as the UK Defense Ministry, russian tank manufacturing plants cannot keep up with the increasing demand.

    How quickly can Russia rebuild its tank fleet?
    https://twitter.com/KyivIndependent/status/1625761998028869632

    This underscores the importance of supplying the Ukrainians with plentiful anti-tank weaponry, as well as keeping the sanctions against russia in place. If the invaders don't have a sufficient tank force in the area they're trying to occupy, it will be impossible for the occupier to maintain their grip of the area. So the Ukrainians ability to smash russian tanks is directly tied to their ability to reclaim their stolen lands. Once russia no longer has enough tank support for their infantry, they can no longer keep control of the occupied areas, and are then forced to retreat. The sanctions are also important: while those are in place, russia's ability to produce modern tanks will suffer. This is not like WWII, where the red army was able to convert any old tractor factory to produce tanks instead. Modern tanks now require electronics and other components that russia now has difficulty acquiring.

    So right now it seems that russia will simply bleed out their military resources. Eventually they simply will not have enough left to keep the attack going, and that's the point where Ukraine has a chance to make their decisive move. The west simply needs to keep the weapons flowing and the sanctions in place, and observe how Ukraine does the rest.

    Then there's also the fact that russia could be broke and out of money by next year. According to Oleg Deripaska, russia is hemorrhaging cash fast:

    Oleg Deripaska says Russia could run out of cash by next year

    No money, no ability to produce weapons and maintain your army.

    That's when the west needs to sanction the shit out of china, and preferably bring all those manufacturing jobs from china back home to west. This would be enough to collapse the house of cards that is china's economy. Unemployment in china would skyrocket and the middle class there would lose their comfortable living standards. This just might be enough to destabilize the country in such a way that china's involvement would become a non-issue, as they would then have their own, domestic issues and turmoil to deal with. The threat of this is certainly the reason why china is already hesitating. They have to carefully balance the risks vs. the rewards. Wrong move from their part could mean the loss of their fortunes. The chinese people demonstrated during the Covid lockdowns that they're not above taking to the streets, if their lives become miserable enough. A lot of people there don't like the Party, it's just that right now they can't say it out loud.

    One thing is certain: If Trump wins in 2024, he will turn his back on the Ukrainians and cut them off. Trump is pro-putin, and a traitor to the west, because he admires the fucker and wants to be the same kind of unchallenged, supreme leader, who can just do whatever he wants with impunity. So with that in mind, something decisive needs to happen sometime within the next 18-20 months, or the Ukrainians could find themselves from a world of hurt. America as a partner is only as reliable as its leaders are. My opinion is that Europe should seriously man the fuck up and start investing in weapons. The childish and naive dream of eternal peace is over.
     
  12. Intrepid37

    Intrepid37 Banned

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    Last edited: Mar 5, 2023
  13. Tishomingo

    Tishomingo Members

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    Ah, yes. No wonder Macgregor, former Trump appointee controversial for his ASnti-Semitic comments (he brands Jews with the old Soviet label "rootless cosmopolitans"), is a favorite of Russian state media!
    "Macgregor is apparently comfortable with Kremlin-funded state media, having sat down for multiple interviews on RT over the years. He went on: “Washington has only one interest in the current crisis—to prevent unnecessary war between Ukraine and Russia. But Biden and his friends deliberately ignored this interest because it would involve compromise. As a morally righteous leftist, he is incapable of compromise.”
    Russian State TV Drops Deranged Love Letter to Its Darling ‘Trumpushka’
    https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/15/technology/russia-media-fox-news.htm
    What 'Putin Wing' Ex-Colonel Douglas Macgregor Has Said About Ukraine War
    Kremlin TV Tells Ukraine to Listen to Fox News Guest and Kneel to Putin
    So you're asking us to listen to this guy?
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2023
  14. Intrepid37

    Intrepid37 Banned

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    Putin vows to defend Christians from Zelensky's persecution.

     
  15. Intrepid37

    Intrepid37 Banned

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  16. M_Ranko

    M_Ranko Straight edge xXx

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    Boohoo, that's what happens, when you take orders from Moscow and plot against your host country. Additional details here:

    Explainer: No, Ukraine’s president hasn’t banned the Orthodox Church - Emerging Europe

    Basically, the Ukrainian Orthodox Church is looking to branch away from the moscow controlled sects, because the russian orthodox church is taking orders directly from putin, and are in favor of this war and support it. It's pretty reasonable then to take actions against this, no? That's what Zelensky is doing, NOT some wide-spread blanket persecution of all Ukrainian Christians.

    Also, consider: putin wants to restore the soviet russian system. Just 40 years ago all religious activity was forbidden in russia (the ussr wanted state atheism (gosateizm)), and vladimir putin himself, as an agent of the KGB, was a servant of this system, quite happily doing its bidding.

    Religion in the Soviet Union - Wikipedia

    Don't let yourselves to be played, US Christians.
     
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  17. M_Ranko

    M_Ranko Straight edge xXx

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    Consider that this is happening in a country that is currently in a desperate place, illegally being attacked by a hostile invading force. Without vladimir putin's actions, none of this would've ever been necessary.

    It looks brutal for sure. But one must remember that unfortunately this follows the letter of Ukraine's law, as they have the draft still in use, and always has been. All able-bodied men age 18-60 are required by Ukrainian law to serve. And similar draft systems also exist in countries like Israel and Finland. In America too during Vietnam. And Poland re-instated theirs last year after not having used it since 2009, when russia became a threat again. Now, you wouldn't criticize Israel for doing the same, would you?

    Also, practice source criticism, please. A lot of this extreme footage of men being dragged into unmarked vehicles actually comes from the russian occupied Donetsk and Luhansk regions, where it's the russian occupiers themselves forcefully drafting the Ukrainian locals into fighting against their own country men.
     
  18. Intrepid37

    Intrepid37 Banned

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    Arrest Warrant Issued for Putin :laughing:

     
  19. Tishomingo

    Tishomingo Members

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    Ah, "the Nazis running Ukriane". Pure, unabashed Putin-lovin' Russian propaganda! You just outed yourself
     
  20. Intrepid37

    Intrepid37 Banned

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    Nope. Not "gay".

    Hetero all the way.
     

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