What do you take this to mean?

Discussion in 'Taoism' started by Indy Hippy, Mar 4, 2009.

  1. Deidre

    Deidre Follow thy heart

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    I hope so too because as it stands, it could double as a page out of Kim Jong-un’s diary.
     
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  2. Mountain Valley Wolf

    Mountain Valley Wolf Senior Member

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    You have to bear in mind that the Ancient Chinese believed that if the government was good, that society would flourish and life would go well, but if the government was bad then natural disasters would befall the community and life would not go well. The Tao Te Ching as it spoke to rulers was advice on how to run a good government. The idea that the ruler is a sage refers to someone who is selfless and benevolent to the people, unlike dictators, despots, and orange freaks. From a Western standpoint, you could compare it to Plato's ideal for a leader of the government--someone who had little to no interest in personal wealth, no interest in personal gain, and who lead by philosophical ideals.

    Taoism came from indigenous ural-altaic shamanic roots. It is multiplistic in nature, like all indigenous spiritualities, so it seeks a balance among the many forces of nature. This is different from, and a whole different mindset from, the dualistic way of a winner take all, and having to defeat an enemy and so forth.

    The First Emperor of China, for example, was a shaman who did great things such as diverting streams and stopping the flooding of floodplains and so forth. He did this by chaning into a bear while his wife drummed.
     
  3. wooleeheron

    wooleeheron Brain Damaged Lifetime Supporter

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    What the passages refer to is wu-wei-wu, or do without doing, which is the Taoist principle of nature that, ultimately, nothing has any actual cause and 42 is as good an explanation as any other. The sun shines and the rain falls because they do-without-doing and do not resist the chi of the universe, or the magical undetectable flow within the empty void. Everything expresses yin and yang, with gravity being a wave-like expression of inertia's particle-like expression and the two transforming into one another. The entire text of the Tao Te Ching tells peasants how to protect themselves from exploitation, by developing their personal integrity and flow of chi through their body. For Taoists, yin and yang, or particle-wave duality, are not a theoretical concept, but a physical and mental observation and truth which can only be lived.

    From a less abstract, personal point of view, what the entire Tao Te Ching expresses is how lowbrow slapstick is intrinsic to nature, as is magic, and by cultivating humility and a gentle sense of humor the peasants in particular can protect themselves from exploitation. The truth hurts for a reason, because we have something to protect, and when we stop defending ourselves and start thinking about others more, the truth no longer hurts. This is why the wealthy tend to suppress the humor of the peasants, why the Tao Te Ching's authors are anonymous, and why Socrates was killed for repeating a handful of lame jokes.
     
  4. Irminsul

    Irminsul Valkyrie

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    That's sexist.
     
  5. Deidre

    Deidre Follow thy heart

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    Sometimes when something needs that much explanation to excuse what it obviously sounds like, it most obviously means what it sounds like. lol But, I'll take your word for it. ;)
     
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  6. guerillabedlam

    guerillabedlam _|=|-|=|_

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    This part of @Mountain Valley Wolf 's response sums up his point well...

    Perhaps to elevate the statement from the obscurity of shamanic roots, I'd say the approach is mostly a character of Eastern Philosophies (Religions) in general.


    It is often difficult for Western Minds, including my own, to analyze some of these Eastern concepts appropriately. although I do understand how you interpreted the passage as you did @Deidre .
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2018
  7. Deidre

    Deidre Follow thy heart

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    I understand and appreciate/respect Eastern philosophies. Why do so many western people (like you have done here) feel this need to apologize on behalf for all of us who live in the west? Lol As if we are all uncultured dolts?
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2018
  8. guerillabedlam

    guerillabedlam _|=|-|=|_

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    Comparing the Tao te Ching to Kim Jung Un's diary definitely shows a level of ignorance or flat out disrespect.

    I'm not apologizing for living in the West and not fully apprehending Eastern ideas, I actually embrace Western Philosophy more than Eastern Philosophy, but that in part, might be due to the fact that I've grown up with the dualistic notions of the West all my life. Western Philosophy stems back 2500 years and Western Religion probably even further back, so admitting ignorance to other cultures you have little to no exposure to is not a terrible thing.
     
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  9. wooleeheron

    wooleeheron Brain Damaged Lifetime Supporter

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    From what I've been able to determine, the two philosophies are converging and western philosophy merely stressed dualistic perspectives as a way to assertively focus on issues, while Asians take a more contextual approach. In other words, the two overlap and should eventually merge into a single form of natural philosophy resembling Taoism. My own work indicates Taoism arose from the tribes formulating their own children's potty mouth nursery rhymes, which express the fuzzy logic of the universe and the laws of physics.
     
  10. Deidre

    Deidre Follow thy heart

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    It’s ignorant to blindly agree with a philosophy and justify bad ideas simply because they’re sacred or ancient. Or out of fear @guerillabedlam
     
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  11. guerillabedlam

    guerillabedlam _|=|-|=|_

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    I think there is an undeniability about Western ideas with many of the inventions of the 21st century, perhaps most notably televisions and computers. This idea of interfacing with "static" mediums to affect some sort of change (and I mean this in a very basic respect such as communciation we're doing or casting a vote for say a reality show) is something which I have not found in much Eastern Thought, but to hedge these statements, again, I have limited knowledge of Eastern ideas. I could feasibly see how Quantum Mechanics could potentially sway the two philosophies back to sort of an overlap but I think it'd take some inventions based on those principles and there are not really any yet that have reached a widespread populace.
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2018
  12. guerillabedlam

    guerillabedlam _|=|-|=|_

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    Is this directed towards me or is this a general statement you are making to me?
     
  13. Deidre

    Deidre Follow thy heart

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    General statement because I don’t know you.
     
  14. guerillabedlam

    guerillabedlam _|=|-|=|_

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    :smile: Fair enough
     
  15. wooleeheron

    wooleeheron Brain Damaged Lifetime Supporter

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    Western and eastern philosophy both contain undeniable truths and falsehoods, which is why they require reconciliation. We exist, the world outside of us exists, and it can be measured and often predicted with incredible accuracy, however, it also expresses equally random and unpredictable behavior. What it requires is a Theory of Everything, because the two approaches are diametrically opposite, with dualistic logics being based on the excluded middle and fuzzy logics incorporating "partial" truths. Such a theory awaits next generation supercomputers which can crunch the numbers, but it is obviously coming soon.
     
  16. Ged

    Ged Tits and Thigh Man.

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    I don't think zeros and ones can reconcile the two streams of Eastern and Western philosophy and science into a theory of everything that will make any sense. You need human philosophy for that. Philosophy is out of fashion but there you go. I'm not denying that computers will inevitably create some awesome models but if no one can understand them what is the point of that.
     
  17. guerillabedlam

    guerillabedlam _|=|-|=|_

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    Not even if the 0's and 1's are interchangeable in a probalistic state?


    Which leads me to my next question to Woo, are these super computers going to be harnessing some super advanced parallel processing, quantum computing or some sort of mix?

    Why do you think that even if the data points to a specific TOE from a super computer that we would automatically ascribe to it without tangible experiemental evidence?
     
  18. wooleeheron

    wooleeheron Brain Damaged Lifetime Supporter

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    No, even classical Von Neumann machines are becoming as powerful as the human brain, which is the number crunching capacity required to model the universe in more humanly comprehensible detail. However, they will keep growing more powerful and, for example, a computer a million times faster and more powerful is possible using digital computing. The problem is, digital computing is rapidly becoming analog computing. The front end of your processor, for example, contains analog logic circuits designed for specific purposes, while graphics cards are about to include serious AI circuitry and the entire PC architecture will be reinvented over the next three years or so for AI and other applications using a distributed computing architecture.

    Its just a question of speed and efficiency, with nature being analog making analog computing or anything else faster and more efficient. What dualistic logics and bring to the table is the ability to add far greater beauty, meaning, and error corrections to the fuzzy logic which is more humorous and paradoxical. My own view, is our technology is increasingly becoming indistinguishable from magic, which will compel people to integrate their conscious and subconscious minds in order to remain competitive. This is related to Game theory, which shows evolution is about cooperation and staying two steps ahead of the competition, so they never see the punch lines coming. In other words, it is a self-organizing systems logic that merely requires someone to plant the first seeds. The more complexity they can incorporate into their logic, the faster, more efficient, and competitive it can become, but it requires self-actualization to use, imply the next scientific revolution will revolve around natural philosophy.
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2018
  19. Mountain Valley Wolf

    Mountain Valley Wolf Senior Member

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    Now I must point out that I did not make the point that an ideal government would necessarily be understood as fair by our modern day standards. At the time the Tao Te Ching was written, the institutions of civilization were well established in China, and the objectivism of Confucianism had been firmly planted in the culture. The Chinese may have very well been happy with a government that we would consider oppressive and overly controlling.

    Nonetheless, one could imagine that a government that truly embodied the concept of wu wei wu would be the very opposite of controlling and oppressive. Taoism was very much the opposite of Confucianism. In fact, these two belief systems could be compared in the West to the controlling and oppressive Apollonian (Confucianism) with the Dionysian (Taosim) and its ecstatic allowance of the freedom of nature.


    Now having written that, I must also point out that we Americans think that we are so free as we live in a culture that promotes economic slavery where most people are induced into debt while earning just enough wages to feed the consumerism that induces the debt. And today, these wage levels are such that even a comfortable life for far too many has fallen further out of reach than it has for many many decades.
     
  20. Mountain Valley Wolf

    Mountain Valley Wolf Senior Member

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    I agree except that I also see the Western, or perhaps I should say the Modern, zeitgeist of duality breaking down. I say Modern because 1.) Western culture is in many ways Modern Global culture, and is very much a part of the culture of China today (even if it is modified into a Chinese version). and 2.) Duality is more a product of civilization than of the West or the East, though I do agree that there is a greater stress on duality in the West whereas in the East there is a more contextual approach.

    But I do see dualism breaking down---beginning with Derrida's philosophy of Deconstruction, and the growing Nihilism of today. The same for objectivism. This is not something that will happen overnight mind you, but there are certainly trends in place. I also agree that we will emerge from this with an understanding of the world more akin to Taoism and indigenous understandings of reality.

    Based on some of the other posts here, let me clarify that there is also a dualistic understanding of reality in the East as well. It is masked over in the East, and is therefore not as blatant as it is in the West, or the Middle East. People often forget that when we talk about Eastern Philosophy we are often referring to a belief system that largely began when a group of Indo-European invaders moved into the Indian subcontinent. Hinduism promoted a definite duality between heaven/spiritual/male/good and earth/physical/female/bad. This was tempered with the Tantric beliefs of the Dravidians, which was at first rejected but later assimilated, and the ecstatic mystical experience that is very much a part of Hinduism and the later Buddhism. But the duality is still very much there---one blatant example is gender relations within India today.

    Or, consider gender relations in Japan which became Buddhist much later than the rest of Asia. The Ancient Japanese were led by a queen--a shamaness, and the maiko or shamaness was the one who communicated with the Gods in the Shinto shrines. The Chinese introduced Buddhism very early in Japanese recorded history, and with it apparently women gave up control to the male priests in the shrines. Today the Maiko simply assist the priests.

    As I stated above, my own research tells me that dualism is more a product of civilization than anything else. It has a lot to do with how planting became a group effort in communities as civilization developed. Even the duality of the yin and yang became more pronounced under the yellow emperor than it seems to be previously. Though the duality of yin and yang itself is not indicative of a dualistic mindset. After all, even in indigenous communities humans are represented by men and women. Duality is a part of life just as multiplicities are. But indigenous communities have a recurring motif that the one becomes two, and the two becomes the many. In Lakota belief, for example, the universe was a singularity in the beginning which became two, the two then 4, the 4 then 8, and from there the many. In Taoism you have the motif of the one becoming the two, the 2 becoming the 3, the 3 becoming the 6, the 6 the 36, and so forth to the many. Some cultures retained their connection to nature better than others which, enabled them to hold on to their indigenous ancestral beliefs better than others, as well as served to temper dualism.
     

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