What Do You Believe

Discussion in 'Agnosticism and Atheism' started by honeyhannah, May 11, 2004.

  1. themnax

    themnax Senior Member

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    what's mind boggling, about what mellow said and occam seconded, is that its what revealers of organized beliefs actually said themselves too, and yet people who claim to fallow them, all too often, and personally is suspect their doing so of being a deliberate excuse, don't seem to get it, or pretend not to.

    i've met people who are honest in their beleifs who DO get it though. they are the believers who have enough faith to recognize that faith in other beliefs and not have to put them down, out of their own insecurity about their own.

    and there are good and honest believers in every faith and nonfaith.

    (along with mind blind fanatics whome i don't beleive are really interested in whatever faith they use as an excuse at all, only in using it as the excuse it affords them)

    oh how i wish, experience WERE the ONLY thing that narrows and limits imagination and the intellect, and not, as it so often does to so many, the coerciveness of human society collectively. or more speicficaly, the particular cultures that surround so many individually. especially the one, all so out of proportion bloated, that is currently dominating this planet, though even that, may eventually be asimulated by what it has and tends to, preempt and usurp. those 'little' cultures, tucked away in corners of the world, that until recently hid and protected them, may yet be the salvation of our species and our world.

    =^^=
    .../\...
     
  2. Mellow Yellow

    Mellow Yellow Electrical Banana

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    That's the rub, isn't it, using organized religion (and higher education, for that matter) to promote an agenda that is driven by the ego, which thrives on coercion to validate itself.

    One of the most compelling concepts I took away from my freshman Philosophy course in ethics was the idea that people and ideas be treated as ends unto themselves, not as means to an end. That is the essence of integrity.

    We cannot hope to get to the fruit of knowledge in it's purest form until we can understand and accept this distinction.
     
  3. The manticore

    The manticore Member

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    i belrive in god man what god is i have no idea but when i say god i mean higher power
    its just obvious when u look at the world evereythins so perfect how did it come out of nothin, how did the sun come out of nothin whys our planet in exactly the write place and all them tings
     
  4. The manticore

    The manticore Member

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    and i think sum ppl are conditioned to think god is bad i.e corruption from religions when they use god to control ppl
     
  5. themnax

    themnax Senior Member

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    i believe that reality is way more wonderfully strainge then any belief has ever depicted it as being. certainly strainge enough for at least one god, if not zillions of them. strainge enough for one god to be both one and zillions at the same time, and still not even that scratching the surface of straingeness.

    nor is that even neccessarily the biggest or most central thing about it. i mean we really don't know. we really don't KNOW anything but science. everything else is speculation. but. you see that's the thing is, reality, existence isn't limited by or to knowledge in any way.

    so it doesn't matter what we think we know, other then what we can use of that knowledge, whatever actually is. but by not mattering, i mean in the sense of what anyone tells us or thinks they know, isn't the biggining or ending of anything.

    only that some things do work in known ways, but that is all that is known, and that is only part of what is. the universe is so big and we live on only this one little grain of sand in it, so what could we possibly know?

    it isn't that any of our guesses CAN'T be, its just that all of them togather, because they ARE guesses, paint a picture that's just so unlikely because the possibilities are so infinite, that even all of our guesses put togather are still like one tiney needle in this endless haystack.

    =^^=
    .../\...
     
  6. Itsdarts

    Itsdarts Member

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    Its much easier to just believe "God did it" isn't it? This way we don't have to worry about learning Evolution, Biology, Physics, Cosmology, Chemestry etc... What a pain in the ass all that stuff is Huh? By the way, that IS how all this got here, by the sciences I described above. You are looking through a very narrow tube if you think everythins so perfect. This all didn't come from "nothin", it came from matter/energy that has always existed as far as we know. The Big Bang is what started the formation of atoms, which started the formation of more complex matter just by running into each other. We know this because it can be observed in outer space all the time. Our Sun (just one of bazillions of stars) was formed out of gasses and other molecules condensing into larger and larger matter until the point of density that the weight of itself ignites and its inner core starts to expell hydrogen and hellium. It will die someday, billions of years from now and this planet will not exist and unless we move, we as humans won't exist either.

    In short, everything is far from "perfect" even if you could coherantly define perfect. Everything is made from the exact same stuff the Sun is made of, we are all star dust. The atoms in your body have existed since the big bang and will continue to exist in separate pieces scattered throughout the universe. About the only thing we don't know is how exactly life formed. Once it did form, we do know how we got here, through evolution. There is no reason to assume a "god did it".
     
  7. Razorofoccam

    Razorofoccam Banned

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    Mellow

    Wow, You actually gained something from ethics 101 ;)
    And your "essence of integrity" had me 'still' in thought for quite a while.
    [ie like an comp lockup in XP.lol]
    And i see that you are correct.. For example . my idea that reality has
    no limmit in duration is simply an idea. It has no function but as an idea.
    Knowing it or not effects nothing else in practical terms.
    And thus you are far wiser than i was at your age...i was a fool..
    And still am in many respects.

    Thank you

    occam
     
  8. Razorofoccam

    Razorofoccam Banned

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    themnax

    you and me both my brother.

    occam
     
  9. Razorofoccam

    Razorofoccam Banned

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    Detroit rock city

    No, there is not. Not a shred of evidence that 'god' made it all.
    But, there is organisation... and this comes from laws.. laws that
    seem to BE from the beginning of our universe. HARDWIRED
    IF all was chaos. how did such exact and ballanced laws form from it?
    i suggest evolution... but evolution requires generations...

    ? 'suggestions'

    occam
     
  10. Mellow Yellow

    Mellow Yellow Electrical Banana

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    Indeed, how ironic that it is experience that sets us free, while simultaneously imprisoning us.

    I appreciate the compliment, Occam (right back at cha), but I'm not so sure I'll possess the "wisdom" I have now in a few years when I'm your age, based on the model of diminishing returns I presented earlier, *lol*, but I will do my best in the endeavor, distancing myself from the intellectual coercion imposed by society, keeping the mind limber as well as the body, by thinking like a child, and acting on it whenever possible.
     
  11. Itsdarts

    Itsdarts Member

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    If energy and matter can't be created or destroyed (basic law of physics) then it leads one to assume that energy/matter have always existed, just possibly not in forms we see today. And if we assume energy/matter has always existed, then the laws that appear to govern energy/matter have as well.

    One of the prevailing theories as to what was "before the big bang" is Super String Theory and with that M-theory. Click here for a rather simplified explanation of these theories. If these theories turn out to be true, this could account for "generations" of universes. Mathamatically, these theories are true, but obviously without more empirical evidence (observing strings for starters), some scientists reject its truthfulness. As for order and chaos, this is only relevent to the observer, in otherwords, its a value humans place on apparent patterns. We see patterns in the sky and call them constellations, they somewhat resemble various animals, people, etc "from our perspective" but if we were to move to someplace in space where we would be looking at the same constellation at a 90 degree angle from where we are now, none of the stars would resemble or make up the current view we see now. The patterns are only apparent from our view. We can take this further and see a "whirlpool" pattern of various galaxies but if we step back further, we can see many galaxies on no apparent order or pattern. Their placement is random through out the universe, with smaller or larger clusters all over the place in no apparent order. Yet other galaxies are eliptical and others yet, just clouds with no apparent shape. No two humans are exactly a like, not even twins, where is the order in that? See, its all releative to the observer. If there were no observers, would the universe exist? Things that make you go, Hmmmmmm.

    :cheers2:
     
  12. Gravity

    Gravity #winning

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    Cause if it wasn't we wouldn't be typing here back and forth asking these questions.

    Your argument goes something like this.. "since everything so perfect (which it isn't), it came out of nothing (how do you know that btw?), same for the sun, how did it come out of nothing (where you getting this from?)

    If the planet wasn't in the exact place and all them things you mentioned aren't true, we wouldn't be here to begin with.

    Your argument is based on ignorance, since some things sound unexplainable and can't be explained by scientific research, the easiest answer, and most pleasing answer people like to hear is the "goddit" answer.

    Whats wrong with just saying "I don't know"?
     
  13. Gravity

    Gravity #winning

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    Religions and Gods have been used to control people for eons. It used to be the political structure, so yeah religion controls people whether people are conditioned to think god is bad or good, either way.
     
  14. Razorofoccam

    Razorofoccam Banned

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    Itsdarts

    What i propose is that yes.. laws always exist. they must.
    or no structure can exist.
    But maybe said laws are not allways the same universe to universe.
    Maybe.. 'successfull' verses.. those that reproduce.
    carry law with them in their offspring.
    example.. matter falls out of this verse we are in through a
    singularity. and makes a new verse..with slightly different law.
    Thus i propose the only successfull verses are ones that produce singularities..
    like ours.

    occam
     
  15. Itsdarts

    Itsdarts Member

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    Not sure if you read the link I provided, but it says something very similar, that gravity "leaks" into and or out of our universe into and/or out of others. It explains the weak force of gravity compared to the other three major forces, electromagnatism, strong and weak nuclear forces. Super String theory, if proven true, is the theory of everything. Other dimensions outside of the 4 we know of, if they exist, will help prove super string theory and on paper, it mathematically works, now we wait for empirical evidence.
     
  16. Razorofoccam

    Razorofoccam Banned

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    Isdarts

    1.Yes.. but i dont agree time is a dimension.. which throws it all out of whack.
    A dimension has extension.[no?]. even if in the realm of plank.
    time has no dimension,, it is a process.
    2.Humanity is too immature to have a theory of everything.
    we are still driving around in vehicles that burn dead vegitable matter.
    i mean, some scientists still believe in gravitons..lol...;)


    then again, i could be full of caca

    occam
     
  17. Itsdarts

    Itsdarts Member

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    1.) I'm not sure if they consider time a dimension, but nothing is getting thrown out of whack. As I said, on paper, through math, the theory works, the evidence (albeit weak) is the math.

    2.) I suppose thats your personal opinion, and I disagree and think HUmanity needs to know the truth (if indeed this is the truth) more now than ever. A graviton = A hypothetical particle postulated to be the quantum of gravitational interaction and presumed to have an indefinitely long lifetime, zero electric charge, and zero rest mass. Black holes use to be hypothetical.
     
  18. themnax

    themnax Senior Member

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    i believe in the basic inhierent and intrinsic goodness of straingeness. statistically this is borne out over commonness and familiarity. its also healthier for the mind. which need the nourisment of accessable straingeness and interestingness to explore.

    =^^=
    .../\...
     
  19. Mellow Yellow

    Mellow Yellow Electrical Banana

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    Is it possible black holes provide the mechanism for this phenomenon?

    How is that?

    Is it possible electromagnetic waves leak in and out of our universe as well?

    Time has no dimension because it is a dimension, being a fundamental atomic component of reality as we define it. You can't break down time into sub-components (or can you?), just as you can't break down fundamental measures such as length, for example. Furthermore, there are many properties that can be defined as dimensions, it just comes down to the framework of your model.

    We're barbarians when you think about it, I mean we can't even get along or elect politicians with social conscience, let alone proclaim the existence of god.

    Familiarity is the enemy of enlightenment. Only when we step beyond the realm of traditional thought by entertaining seemingly absurd ideas can we expand our threshold of knowledge.
     
  20. Itsdarts

    Itsdarts Member

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    It is my understanding that a Black Hole is really just a super dense dead sun that possibly started as a neutron star and over time, sucked in more suns (mass) and that its density is so great that even light can't escape. I've heard estimates that Neutron stars are so dense that a teaspoon full would weight more than the earth.



    Don't know, I'm not a physicist and the article I quoted didn't go into detail since it was written for the layman, sorry.


    Here is an easy description of time as a dimension. One should remember that "Dimensions" in physics aren't necessarily spatial (x, y, z).
     

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