What Do You Believe

Discussion in 'Agnosticism and Atheism' started by honeyhannah, May 11, 2004.

  1. themnax

    themnax Senior Member

    yes, i believe it is good to love our invisible friends and that they are real. the dark side of belief, is that when we attempt to judge the unknown, we deceive ourselves.

    it is quite a seperate thing apart from loving our invisible freinds, to try to tell someone else how to perceive their own.

  2. dropdead

    dropdead Member

    i believe that were animals

    like animals were born
    we live
    we die
    and we decay into the ground

    and i dont believe theres a god or a creator
    i believe humans create religion for strength and support
  3. PlacidPete

    PlacidPete Member

    But, dropdead, where to you believe we came from?
  4. hippie_chick666

    hippie_chick666 Senior Member

    No, you are missing the point. If something is indescribable, then any descriptions are false. The idea of Tao/God force/whatever you call it is entirely infinite and cannot be described by its nature. Therefore, when I give it the name "Tao," this concept is false b/c it is a concept which is finite. The infinite can never be decribed w/ finite terms, which all descriptions are.

    Your example illustrates this point. You can't describe a feeling but that doesn't make the feeling unreal. It makes any description of the feeling false. Therefore, any description is ultimately false b/c words are not the object they describe.
    Peace and love
  5. Okiefreak

    Okiefreak Senior Member

    They're constructs, like "black hole", "quark" "quantum" or "Superstring";they work, in the context of mathematical equations and (at least potentially) in explaining or making predictions about reality. But we have reason to believe that they may not "exist" in the way we think of them. That's a little different than calling them "false".
  6. neodude1212

    neodude1212 Senior Member

    The part in bold is what I was refering to.
    It's one thing to say our descriptions are false, but does that automatically make the face behind the mask, false as well?
  7. Okiefreak

    Okiefreak Senior Member

    In cosidering "alternative science" theories like Young Earth Creationism, let's not leave out the Flat Earth Society, which was founded by biblical literalists but has a rather elaborate pseudocientific rationale for believing the earth is flat, complete with conspiracy theories (the Moonwalk was staged in a Hollywood movie studio backlot).
    Are we sure they aren't right? Is there anything we can be sure of? (I say No)
  8. memo

    memo Member

  9. themnax

    themnax Senior Member

    bingo! precisely my point as well.

    no reason there either can't be, OR has to be, anything, but whatever words we invent for it/them, we are only fooling ourselves to imagine we know anything because we've invented words for it. nor, at the same time does this prevent there from being anything we don't know, nor us from feeling and experiencing what we don't have to pretend to know to feel and experience.

    we have no idea what may or may not have created anything, we can only observe that some things happen more often then others and that some things happen more often when other things happen before them, and from doing so, deduce backwards some things that are likely to have occured before the conditions we experience now.

    if some people want to call what the feel is big, friendly and invissible, "god", or whatever else, well that is one thing, but really that is just a name, our, or someone's name for it.

    knowing that nothing is limited by our lack of knowledge about it, i like to feel that i can love and be loved and do love and am loved by many invisible things i know nothing objectively about.

    and if one happens to be bigger then all the rest of them, or all encompassing, well, that's 'god' enough for me.

    all the rest of the stuff religeons come up with, well maybe that big invisible something pickes someone every thousand years or so to be channeled by, but still, when it comes out of the words of anyone among us, well those are words, and the unkown is still the unknown, and all that is, is still more diverse then we can imagine and still, how can i say, unlikely for there not to be many times more of it then any one or any belief pretends to know.

    and even those channelers, what are they really telling us?
    that there's some kind of war between unseen things, or that we should beat everyone over the head to doesn't aggree to one or another particular way of looking at it? not that i can see in any of the things any of them wrote or had written. no, the tell us, in many and often confusing words, but the tell us that yes we are loved by something we can never know, but also that it really is, still up to us, to not mess everything up for each other. maybe some of them sound like the're saying we don't have to worry about any of that if we just fallow their rituals and believe their myths, but these too, are things that people are saying to each other for people reasons. and we can observe that this doesn't really work very well.

    i don't believe any of the real origens of any of those beliefs really wanted us to lie to ourselves the way those who identify themselves as their fallowers, so often seem to insist upon that we do.

    ah, but again that is of course a digression into belief.

    what is honest is to admit that we don't know what we don't know, without denying the possibility that we can still be loved by it.

    it's fun to make up stories about what we can't see, and no one can prove or disprove, but when we forget that is what the words of belief are doing, even though the feelings of belief can be and often are very real, then we've drifted into a self destructive territory, that i really don't believe anything unseen, ever really intended us to. i mean there is only the words of people saying THEY want us to.

    so yes i believe there are things we don't know, but that not knowing is not knowing, not any of the stories we are told.

    i mean i HAVE felt things, experienced things, and what I'VE felt and experienced, simply does NOT confirm, what anyone has ever told me to believe about it. only that we are loved by things we don't know.

  10. Mellow Yellow

    Mellow Yellow Electrical Banana

    Interesting point, though many philosophers have tried. The full nature of reality, then, is beyond the realm of any framework we can impose upon it (be it by language, scientific model, etc.). Understanding, then, becomes a process of extending one's consciousness, which requires letting go of the frameworks our minds cling to.
  11. Truckin'

    Truckin' Member

    I agree with Maria Bamford:

    "I don't believe in God. I believe in the human mind's power to create fantasies that reassure itself in times of trouble."
  12. Razorofoccam

    Razorofoccam Banned

    I believe you guys are all full o shit. ;)
    10 pages of garbage and maybe 3 things worth noting.

    Find out what BELIEVE means. then come back.
    Believe does NOT mean 'it exists'. It is subjective.
    A perception
    So is Justice morality, beauty, hope, freedom, hate, love fear, compassion


    PS.. ALso Nations, corporations, Juntas, sects, religions.
    ALL are beliefs.. They do not physically exist.
    They are states of neuroelectrical activity in the minds of the
    proliffic ape called MAN.
    Master of all he surveys, lord of nothing.
  13. dropdead

    dropdead Member

    well PlacidPete im not really sure
    but then again no one is

    science say its evolutions
    religion says its a god

    no one knows for sure everybodys just goin with their gut

    i personally dont see enough proof for either of these beliefs
    not that i dont respect others beliefs thats just me personally im not gonna be a cock about it
  14. themnax

    themnax Senior Member

    good for you. you and hippychick both said it better then i could this time.

  15. Okiefreak

    Okiefreak Senior Member

    And SCIENCE, too?
  16. Razorofoccam

    Razorofoccam Banned


    Good question.

    Science is a belief as well.
    Subjective, [a perception come about from neuroelectric input]
    but with one very important qualifier.
    A hundred, a thousand, a billion humans.
    Cannot disprove that an 'thing' falls to earth. [an apple ;)]
    At 32 ft per second per second.
    One gravity.

    NO HUMAN has ever invalidated gravity. [gravitic effect]

    Science is simply an event [phenomena] which no human can invalidate.

    Thus we must all agree that things fall down.
    Life is massively complicated and interconnected.
    [Relative to all else]
    Iron has more protons than carbon.

    Science CANNOT be applied to ANY belief held by one person
    if that person cannot produce the belief to be tested by scientific method.

    Set #1 Things that exist.. atoms,EM radiation, space, .. all exist.
    [they cannot be disproved]
    Set #2 Structures. Organisations of things that exist.
    Love is a structure of neuroelectric activity in human heads.
    As is beauty, democracy, justice, hate, fear, compassion.....
    Planets, suns, galaxies are organisations of atoms,EM radiation,space.

    What a wonderFULL reality i have found myself in..

  17. memo

    memo Member


    This whole thread is one giant facepalm.
  18. Razorofoccam

    Razorofoccam Banned


    Poor bubby,, Whats wrong,? ego getting you down?

    Live Thoreau, dont quote him.

    Anytime... i await

  19. memo

    memo Member

    What ego? Experimenting with psychadelics has pretty much destroyed whatever ego I had. That doesn't mean that I have to abandon all reason. I went hiking for 5 hours this morning and slept on a pile of leaves last night. I think I'm doing pretty good. :)
  20. Razorofoccam

    Razorofoccam Banned


    Lol.. And you stashed your PC with isdn connection where?
    ooh thats a big leaf.


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