What could really happen...

Actually Max, no direct claim for the attacks was ever made by Osama. Claims that he made reference to the attacks have been made, but quite frankly the so called "concrete evidence" by which this entire paradigm of thought has been erected (and was readily spread far and wide via mainstream media) has been woefully scant and suspicious at best.

This is a an example of precisely what Chomsky discusses in Manufacturing Consent and the commonly accepted means by which our "free and democratic" societies are incrementally propagandised until it seems absurd to question the "groupthink" of the vast majority.

Step outside the box and go back to the very beginning (911) and begin by asking yourself the most basic starting questions of any criminal investigation, namely "who stood to gain the most?" and "who had the both the means and the opportunity?"

What has been lacking here isnt indictment of the proper party but an ACTUAL public, transparent, sweeping investigation into every inconsistent aspect of the coverstory from the day of 9/11 and thereafter.

Go and check out what the flight schools who supposedly taught the 911 hijackers had to say about their flying ability and the coverstory will already begin to unravel into something potentially more sinister and dispicable than most Americans dare consider about those in power over us.

Each and every intelligent American should at least be willing to go beyond the mainstream to sift through much that the corporate media has interest in exposing (not when advertising profits are its life blood).

 

I find this theory that everything bad that happens in the world is caused by sinister white americans really charming

if someones beheaded its really the cia, all the bomb attacks cia or mossad quite amazing, surely they have no time to sit down .

only problem I have is Ive talked to real live flesh people who dont look like they are in the cia that support osama

who are all these suicide bombers in isreal are they mossad agents

I have some sites you could visit to read up on the ideology but I suppose you would think its all some form of black propoganda

http://www.islamistwatch.org/

http://www.faithfreedom.org/

http://www.jihadwatch.org/

 

Come on Lick. I know we disagree on a lot of things, but you're a smart guy. Are you telling me you believe that the U.S. government was behind the 9/11 attacks? That the US would train terrorists for the sake of murdering thousands of innocent civilians and destroying a center of commerce and headquarters of military operations (not to mention attempted destruction of the Pentagon, White House, and whatever else those planes were supposed to hit)? And don't give me that bullcrap about us supporting him in the war against the USSR either. The Soviets were a much bigger enemy than than Osama could ever be to the U.S. (Osama dosen't have the nuclear capabilities to destroy the U.S. 10 times if he so pleased).

 

think outside the box man. George W. despised Saddam and the fact that his dad couldnt catch him. He figured that if any middle eastern country attacked the U.S, he could get the amerikan people to believe that they were somehow linked to Iraq. But no middle eastern country was dumb enough just because they didnt like us, so Bush pursuaded some crazy terrorist group into attacking the U.S, with promises that after a little while he'll stop coming after them. And now, amerika is in Iraq and is not looking for Al Queda anymore. hmm....

 

Maxpower-do you get all of your "facts" from CNN? I mean really...There are other news sources that are MUCH more reliable in my mind, like
http://democracynow.org/
http://alternet.org/
http://www.bbc.co.uk/
just to name a few. Even spanish language news has less bias than the evening news on basic cable! While they were covering the Haiti ordeal and the ousting of President Aristide, our local news channels were telling us that buying knock-off handbags supports terrorism!

If you did read or listen to sources other than mainstream, I think that you would be at least a little more receptive to opinions other than those of Fox and CNN. Just because you think that something is so outlandish that it cannot possibly be true-think about the events that have already taken place in this country-you can't write FICTION that reads better than our current events!

Shit, even if you read the press room on the website of our very own whitehouse, you will see 200% more than if you just watch cable television.
On his own site, there is documentation of the great George W. Bush directly and publicly contradicting himself on the priority of finding and delivering justice to Osama bin Laden! If you want direct links I'll gladly provide them.

Remember how directly after 9/11, just one day after, the media had the identities of the hijackers? How the hell did they know this shit one day after if the men were good enough to, not only plan and execute the shit, reside in the United States and possess US driver's licenses, but do it all with complete scrutiny? Our intelligence and police systems failed to arrest any of these guys for any of the numberous crimes they were committing just by coming here, let alone learning to fly airliners when you must be a citizen to even enroll at these places. What was our "Defense" department doing? Where was NORAD? The single objective of NORAD is to protect North America from air strikes of any kind. That's it. We pump billions into this program, directly out of your paycheck, and what did they do?

"In October [2002], Gen. Eberhart told Congress that ‘now it takes about one minute’ from the time that the FAA senses something is amiss before it notifies NORAD. And around the same time, a NORAD spokesofficer told the Associated Press that the military can now scramble fighters ‘within a matter of minutes to anywhere in the United States.’ ” [Slate, 1/16/02]"

http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/...1&timeline=complete_911_timeline&startpos=250

Why didn't they shoot the planes down? Because they required authorization directly from the President. Why was this authorization not given? Well, eventually it was, but not from the President, it came from the Vice President, and only AFTER it was too late to do anything. NORAD can scramble fighters in "a matter of minutes" Now how much time was available to give this authorization? An hour and a half. Nothing. Why?

Also, why has nobody been fired?

Also, if this failure of our defense systems WAS just a mistake, why do you still trust the fuckers with everything they tell you about the Iraq war, Saddam and Saudi Arabia? If it was a simple failure, they are flat out incompetent and unworthy of blind trust, and also unworthy of the tax money that you give them to fund your protection!

 

Don't believe everything I say, because I'm not trying to get anybody to throw out their beliefs and blindly accept mine. Just open up enough to question the 'official' version of important events before forming an opinion.

 

You know, I can always be persuaded with facts, maybe a link to a site that doesn't have a blatant bias? Is that too much to ask, or am I supposed to just run with the facts that some person relays to me on an online forum?

Who said where I got my news from? Just because my point of view does not agree with yours, I must therefore get my news from FOX or the equivalent? After you're done making baseless accusations on nothing but your own uninformed guesses, I'll take you seriously.

I know what you're referring to, but I'd like to see the links anyway. It won't change the fact that we have thousands of special field ops hunting Osama around the clock, and just as many at home doing the same. I don't see how Bush'd inconsistency can lead you to believe that the he was behind the largest terrorist attack in U.S. history. His reports were conflicting, so therefore he must be responsible for the deaths of 9/11?

Yeah, but the hijackers were dead after 9/11, so they didn't really give a fuck who knew their names and identities. If you know you're going to die, it's no use trying to cover up your tracks once you've got the plane ticket and the plan.

The CIA blew pre 9/11 (and it still does, but not as hard), from a combination of things. Lack of funding, incompetence, bad judgement, etc. etc. I'm not in charge of the CIA, so why do you expect me to answer for it's failures? NORAD had nothing to do with the 9/11 attacks, since the planes were all commercial airplanes that took off inside the U.S. and were headed for U.S. destinations.

I find it interesting that the liberals complain about racial profiling, immigrants' rights, deportation laws being to strict, and what have you, yet now you complain that we should have arrested them pre-9/11? If we HAD arrested them pre-9/11, you would have been complaining that they were being violated and that they have the same right to be here as I do. So either way, the CIA and FBI fail in your eyes.

Do you have any fucking idea how much shit the president would be in for shooting down civilian planes, even if they were hijacked? Giving the order to shoot down commercial airliners would have been political suicide, the democrats would have been all over his ass like ugly on Whoopi Goldberg for making such a decision. Even if 9/11 was avoided, Bush would never be able to recover in the public's eye. It's a sad fact that our politicians think that way, but they do. A democrat would have been no different.

Wait wait wait, who said I trusted anybody? Just because I don't think that Bush was behind 9/11 means that I'm a Bush supporting conservative? Grow a fucking brain. I hate George Bush. He put my country into an unrealistic amount of debt, mismanaged a war that he was wrong to enter into in the first place, and lost what little respect America held on the international level. But at the same time, I'm not gullible enough to believe that he actually planned the 9/11 attacks. He's a bad president, but to say that he orchestrated the deaths of 3,000 innocent people as well as the destruction of the Pentagon and the White House just to defend his father's honor is stupid.

 

stupid? I dont think so. Why the hell did he go to Iraq then? his reasons were stupid then, Iraq qas not a threat to the U.S, and Al Queda has not been linked to Saddam in anyway. how come the Patriot Act was set up before 9/11? or the september 11th fund for that matter? from what I remember reading somewhere, the fund had been set up before the attacks...

 

I can always be persuaded by facts. Do you have a link to any of that (and please, not MoveOn.org or anything like that)?

 

Well, while I'm not really convinced that Bush & Co. actually planned the whole 9/11 attack by themselves(I think if they had any hand in this, it was probably simply knowing about it and allowing it to happen, as the govt. did with Pearl Harbor way back when), I don't doubt that there's some element of petty revenge for his father that fueled Bush's urge to invade Iraq. I mean, Bush even took Saddam's pistol as his personal war trophy.

 

Our government infrasturcture and our MIC in particular goes well beyond the administration of the day itself. Any possible conspiracy would not necessarily have had to directly involve Bush in the planning and those of us who suspect that the PNAC agenda of being the catalyst for the events of 9/11 have spoken in far more systemic terms than merely the "front men" of the present day.

Remember that in order for this series of event s to have been carried out with the military precision that they were would have reuired more complicity by elements within the Defence Intelligence and National Security infrastructure to have been calibrated successfully.

I personally would turn the spotlight on Cheney, Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz (each with deep roots in the US defence establishment going back through several prior administrations) long before id consider the shrub himself of being involved. If any Bush has a likely hand in matters it would be daddy Bush, who happens to not only retain his highest level CIA clearnace to this day but actually regularly reads the CIA briefings traditionally supplied to former presidents by our intelligence establishment.

I would suspect that FEMA in its own right is involved somehow, considering that Tom Kenney, the FEMA spokesperson, even acknowledged to Dan Rather on a televised interview that FEMA arrived in NYC the night before the attacks and was "ready to go first thing in the morning".

In the end, and I reiterate this strongly, those of us who continue to pursue this matter in the face of a patently inconsistent and flimsy "official" coverstory, are interested not in handing out indictments first, but in ensuring an entirely independent, fully judicial, and broadly mandated INVESTIGATION (unlike the government appointed and/or sanctioned charades we've seen in both the US and UK to date) which could not be stonewalled by the Cheney or any others in its ability to scour the official records conveniently deemed "classified" to protect the guilty.

Until we have that, we can but pick at the emerging contra-evidence such as the accounts of the flight instructors of the alleged hijackers themselves who have clearly acknowledged that Atta and his cohorts couldnt handle a piper cub without an instructor present let alone a jumbo commercial airliner which made a near 90 degree midair turn before hitting the WTC. Such is evidence of precision military expertise, not some hack trainee.

Exmining the resultant lack of political resistance to a known politcal agenda which had lain dormant for nearly a decade should at least give pause to those with questioning minds.

 

it was given to him as a freaking gift, jeez. People will criticize bush over everything.

 

we can trace back this sort of suicide attack to the very early history of islam

to me it sounds like the sort of operation the islaili shia sect of the assassins would be doing if hasan-i-sabbah was still around in the castle of alamut in the mountains of Iran .
now osamas sunni muslim but suicide attacks are being widely supported across the muslim world , there had been earlier attacks on the world trade center,
they had the motive, it was the sort of method you could imagine they would use.

anybody could be some sinister force behind such an attack but who is the most likely ?

the same thing applys to the reaction to these beheading videos
most of you guys seem to think its the american goverment

but these type of videos have been around for at least 20 years thats well before this war on terror business these sort of videos used to circulate when our goverments used to like islamic fundermentalism

did this sinister american conspiracy go back in time to the crusades and set up groups like the assassins to make their plots look more realistic to me this seems unlikely

I personally dont think bush and co need to make fake attacks on their own country ,I think there are lots of real people who really hate america and not really for anything that your doing .
they just think your evil sinners and they want their religion to dominate the world through military means

 

actually max, skip seems to have gotten this in email as well. i was looking around hippyland shortly after posting this and found that he has it on there too

http://www.hippy.com/php/article-234.html

 

Max, I have no need to 'grow a brain' as you so eloquently stated....I do however like to expand my understanding of the world around me....that involves a lot of reading. Had YOU been reading carefully, you would have noticed my little 'disclaimer' in the post directly following the one you dissected.....

I don't think that you are the only one that needs to open your eyes to the BLATANT wrongs that go on daily in this country. There are plenty of people on these forums-and elsewhere that need to wake up. By posting on these forums, I hope to broaden peoples horizons, or at least read one item that helps them see the world as it is....not how mainstream media wants them to see it.

"I know what you're referring to, but I'd like to see the links anyway. It won't change the fact that we have thousands of special field ops hunting Osama around the clock, and just as many at home doing the same. I don't see how Bush'd inconsistency can lead you to believe that the he was behind the largest terrorist attack in U.S. history. His reports were conflicting, so therefore he must be responsible for the deaths of 9/11?"
-type the phrase 'miserable failure' into the google search engine. See where that gets you.

"Yeah, but the hijackers were dead after 9/11, so they didn't really give a fuck who knew their names and identities. If you know you're going to die, it's no use trying to cover up your tracks once you've got the plane ticket and the plan."
-You missed the point entirely. The point was that 1 day after the attack, while thousands of people were missing/unidentified, we had the identities of all the hijackers! Why was it so easy?!? How did these people get away with creating false identities AND obtaining the documentation to PROVE these false identies?

"The CIA blew pre 9/11 (and it still does, but not as hard), from a combination of things. Lack of funding, incompetence, bad judgement, etc. etc. I'm not in charge of the CIA, so why do you expect me to answer for it's failures? NORAD had nothing to do with the 9/11 attacks, since the planes were all commercial airplanes that took off inside the U.S. and were headed for U.S. destinations."
-Call me ignorant, but I wasn't aware of any commercial flight patterns that happen to lead planes directly into the world trade center....please correct me if I'm wrong. I think that NORAD would have noticed a commercial airliner veering WAAAY off course and heading straight for a skyscraper...and call me crazy, but I also believe that the govt. would rather have several hundred people die, as opposed to several THOUSAND.

"I find it interesting that the liberals complain about racial profiling, immigrants' rights, deportation laws being to strict, and what have you, yet now you complain that we should have arrested them pre-9/11? If we HAD arrested them pre-9/11, you would have been complaining that they were being violated and that they have the same right to be here as I do. So either way, the CIA and FBI fail in your eyes."
-For somebody so angry about beibg 'accused' of something...

"After you're done making baseless accusations on nothing but your own uninformed guesses, I'll take you seriously."

...you sure are quick to point fingers
"yet now you complain that we should have arrested them pre-9/11" and
"If we HAD arrested them pre-9/11, you would have been complaining that they were being violated and that they have the same right to be here as I do. So either way, the CIA and FBI fail in your eyes."
-Besides, I never said anything about arresting anyone.

"Do you have any fucking idea how much shit the president would be in for shooting down civilian planes, even if they were hijacked? Giving the order to shoot down commercial airliners would have been political suicide, the democrats would have been all over his ass like ugly on Whoopi Goldberg for making such a decision. Even if 9/11 was avoided, Bush would never be able to recover in the public's eye. It's a sad fact that our politicians think that way, but they do. A democrat would have been no different."
-Again, whats worse, several hundred or several thousand? Political suicide? I guess you don't really have to worry about political suicide when you dont have to actually win an election to be president. Democrats would have been 'all over his ass' anyway, because that is the nature of this game-rebublicans and democrats dont typically agree on anything.


Read my posts for what they are-and then make your own deductions. Research, read and expand your understanding of what is going on around you. Apathy is ignorance, and dissent is terrorism.

(And Max, before you try to tear me apart for the preceding 2 sentences, they are directed toward EVERYONE who may come across this page.)

 

It takes time to type a post, and by the time I submitted mine you had posted your "disclaimer." And why post that? Just to say "Here are my views and opinions, but dont take them seriously! I dont actually mean what I say!"?

Who said I was believing everything the mainstream media fed me? Just because I don't believe that the government was behind the 9/11 attacks, I must be a blind sheep?

Here ya go. That doesn't offer any proof as to how the American government was behind the 9/11 attacks though. Bush sucks, major newsflash. I was almost as suprised the other day when I heard that the whole Sonny and Cher thing didn't work out.....

It's not like getting a fake ID and false documentation is really that hard. People do it all the time, and terrorists are smarter than most of them. As for us having their names and identities, I don't recall if we even did have them or not. What I remember was everyone being in a state of panic just after 9/11, and everything on the news was "we don't know" and "we're awaiting more info."

There was no way of knowing where those planes were headed until it was too late to stop them. And "Well, there MIGHT have been more deaths" is not a feasable justification for ordering hundreds of Americans to be shot down and killed. Like I said, political suicide.

Are you kidding me? You said:

Sounds like you're suggesting that they should have been arrested to me.

You're right. Bush wasn't elected and the democracy upon which our nation was built has since been demolished. Why bother holding primaries, or elections for that matter? Why bother voting, since the election is going to be rigged anyway right? There can be no political suicide, since after all Bush doesn't have to win an election to stay president.

But they weren't.

 

hmm, i see that you didnt bother with a reply now that you've discovered i didnt write that article myself.