What CAN We Agree On?

I believe that love can win as well and I think many of us realize this, but we don't know what to do next. There would have to be some kind of critical mass in order to achieve this, but I haven't yet had time to think about HOW. These forums are a way for us to get our ideas out in the hopes that we will learn from them and that others will learn from us. Utopian sounding, I know, but that's the way I feel about it. Thanks for being here, YEM36313.

 

This is the thing, THE HOW. I am so hard-pressed to answer this question. The sixties were such a great start, but then you have incidents like Altamont (Did i spell that right?) or Charles Mansion, and you realize how vulnerable and trusting this community is. Have we trusted to a fault? Can we agree on that? The thing is, we are loving people, and trusting people, and we are all interested in making this difference, but how do we open ourselves up without inviting disaster? I can definately say that we are all united in our message of love and of peace, but you have it right, Believe, we do need to find a way to organize others...to find the masses. The big government does it so well, and i suppose that is a part of the problem.

 

I keep seeing statements where I sympathize with the sentiment, but disagree completely with the details.

YEM36313, that's just plain wrong. Actually, capitalism could survive perfectly well without any government at all. At its root, capitalism is just laissez-faire economic policy, the idea that the less government interferes in the economic lives of the citizens, the better.

Seriously, YEM36313, go to the library (or just do a search on the internet) and read up on Adam Smith, who is pretty much acknowledged as the father of capitalism. There's nothing wrong with his ideas. The problem is, the U.S. has corrupted them beyond all recognition, just as the former Soviet Union corrupted the ideas of Karl Marx.

Capitalism--the idea that each person should be free to contribute to society according to his own talents and passions, and be appropriately compensated for it, without government interference--is an excellent idea. What we have going now is not capitalism, and hasn't been since the 1860's. It's a weird form of corporate/post-industrial feudalism, and it's time we did away with it.

I also couldn't let that one pass. I was alive in the 'sixties. Here again, you're flat out wrong. The 'sixties was a time when people were routinely beaten down, shaved like sheep, or worse, over nothing more than the length of their hair. Students were gunned down in college protests. Racial tension was relentless. Romanticism aside, it was a time of violence and extreme paranoia, especially from 1967 to around 1972. I'm at a loss to describe how bad it really was.

I applaud the ethics and sympathies of many of the folks writing in this forum, but your knowledge of history, economics, and political theory needs some work.

 

Okay, yes i understand where you are coming from, R. August Croen, but maybe i jsut haven't articulated my point well enough... (but let me say, as far as capitaltism goes, i am not going to argue w/ you on that. i'll look it up. as a young person, sometimes it is hard to see more outside the box...thank you

As far as the comment on hippies being more critized than ever by way of failure to acknowledge, i am merely speaking of my personal experience with people not accoustomed to the community. You see, when i tell someone i work with that i am going to a Phil Lesh concert, they ask who that is, and when i tell them he is from the GratefulDead, they usually say something along the lines of, " I didn't know there were still hippies..." or, for instance, let's talk family: People are very critical of things they do not believe in...can we say substances?
Maybe what i meant to say is, there a large group of people who choose to ignore that peaceful, music loving,pot-smoking, responsible, people actually identify with the spirit of the original movement. People don't want to get down and dirty with the facts...
We can agree here can't we? i am not saying EVERYONE, just a lot of people.

But you made some valid points. bravo

 

It's not like the movement died out and then was revived by the youth.
My point of view is that the hippie movement never died, it simply got smaller over time. There have been hippies ever since the '60s, and so far there has been no break in the chronological chain. The movement just keeps getting passed down to younger generations.

 

Actually, it goes back before the term "hippy" was even coined. The "beatniks" were the same breed with a different name, and it goes back even before them. Heck, check out the biography of Katharine Hepburn. She was a hippy before there were even beatniks.

Free spirits have always been with us. Usually, however, their stories haven't been as happy as hers was.

 

Yes, i agree with that... but i guess what i am saying is we need to band together a little more, like the 60's, revive the purpose and movement and make a difference. It takes numbers. It takes people being out there. It takes some sitting around in washington, protesting, writing congressmen, etc. Something needs to happen here. This is just wrong the way we are living...we can do better.

You know what i'm saying?

 

I wasn't alive in the '60s either, but I just read an article called "Antinomians and 'Free Spirits': The Hippies" by Henry Miller and he gives an extremely interesting look at the hippies. Not to belabor the point, YEM36313, but the hippies weren't all great. There were some pretty fucked up aspects to the movement as RAC already said. You seem to be focusing on only the good and overlooking the bad. Hippies are and were human so they were just as vulnerable to all the ills of society as non-hippies- drug dealing and prostitution, for example.

Their message about peace and love and change is excellent and should definitely be carried on, but as you said, hippies don't get much respect from the larger society which makes me think that the road to change is not paved with hippies.

 

That is exactly my point... the road to revolution CAN be led by the hippies. Not because we are some excellent breed of superhumans, but because we have faltered. The respect quotant can be changed by intergration through proving that your recreational activities have no real bearing on your career. You have set goals and boundaries and NOT be controlled by drug culture, as with the 60's, you saw a lax attitude toward work, and little to no value where money was concerned. (Not that we want to put that high a value in the monetary system, but...) You have to know how much you need to reach your goals, and no one should remain stagnant. But being progressive- ie- changing with the times, but adhering to your own beat, you can make people change their mindset... maybe?

 

That's interesting. I never new Katherine Hepburn was into that kind of stuff.

 

I think I understand what you're saying. You think that because the hippies have been there, done that, and survived that they're better prepared to lead another revolution. Is that right? I can't help but feel that no one group in particular should be "in charge" of this new movement for peace. People from every subcultural group should come together, work together, and have no particular credo other than working for peace.

 

yeah i think that no one should dominate, but lets face it, people need to be led. Not everyone would be a hippie. I talk to motivated people everyday who want peaceful change with in this world, and they are definately not hippies. The problem is that mostly i think people feel like they are too busy. "I don't have enough time, energy, or money to accomplish anything but what i am presently working at" where a hippie might say, "fuck the money, i want the time"
Its more of an issue of values. I want to be the kind of person my future children can actually learn from in the strongest sense of the word. I want to be absolutely true to my feelings and beliefs. If i do not, i feel that i have failed. That is why i am here.

I am trying to sort some things out. Figure out where exactly i stand so that i can go out there and try to make a difference. I am not saying this will be done tomorrow, or even next year, but i think that people have generally stoppped asking questions. But people like us, we can be that light at the end of the tunnel. We can be those people who say, "Wait a second, i think you have settled."
Maybe the hippie culture can help the normal populus to ask questions, and even to feel dissatisfied. I just can not believe that people can just be satisfied with the way things are. I am happy, and i want to share my love and happiness. But i see pain and destruction, and i want to share my love with those people who are hurting too... how do you tell the world that while you love and are happy, you may also feel disgust??

 

You're absolutely right, YEM36313, some people (maybe even the majority of people) need to be led. I was thinking a committee would have to be formed so that we would have a variety of people and, therefore, a variety of points of view- hippies and non-hippies alike. In regards to having enough time, I can sympathize with those people. I'm a graduate student right now and time is precious. I wouldn't be able to commit to something like this full-time for at least another year- not because I lack the motivation, but because I'm in the middle of getting my degree and I would want to finish that up first- no loose ends.

I don't think people are satisfied with the way things are, but I do think they've stopped trying to make things better. What you said is right, a lot of people have settled and we need to shake them free of that lethargy. A light at the end of the tunnel is perfect imagery.

In terms of telling the world that it's ok to be happy and disgusted at the same time, it's like loving your country, but hating what it's become. I think maybe that's where we are. The difference with us though is that we haven't settled and we are coming up with ideas that may help us out of the slump this country and this world have fallen into.

 

Most definately. But it IS hard to imagine what life could be like (or will be like) if and when things change. Its also hard to know when to make your move, and HOW to make your move. Things sometimes have a way of losing momentum. Maybe one of the best things we could do is to begin to spread the love.


I don't know about you guys, but i go to a lot of concerts in the summer, and maybe if we all went out and got 40+ flowers everytime we went to a concert and gave them out on Shakedown street, that would help the ball to get moving. When you are at a festival or concert, you know that you are around like-minded people, and they would be open to it...Maybe they would start to do it too. Hell, maybe we would run into eachother, and that would awesome!

But there is something to be said about the power of a gift...the power of giving, i mean. What if we just did things, small things, big things, that gave people good feelings? If you're feeling good, its hard to be upset. Make a pie for grouchy neighbor, maybe they won't be so grouchy. Cut out hearts out of cool paper and stick them on people's cars at the grocery store... little things... but if we all did it, and we encouraged others to do it too, people would begin to notice that love and peace and unity are possible, but you have to be open to it.

That's what i think we should do! Let's agree to start small. Lets agree to begin to spread love TO EVERYONE.

 

Cool. Starting small sounds good. I can and will definitely do that. In the meantime we can brainstorm about our peace tv idea and maybe, just maybe we'll do it in the hopefully not too distant future.

By the way, I'm in Oregon, mr. morrison is in Virginia, and you're on the east coast (where exactly on the east coast? I lived there for awhile so I'm kinda curious) so the chances of us just happening to meet up sometime are highly unlikely...though it would be very cool to meet you both.

 

i'm in delaware...the beach. it rocks here!! I love the ocean, but i do have some friends in Bend, OR...but i want to say they are moving to eugene because they found a place they really dig.


But, believe, you are not too far from Vegas...are you going to Vegoose? i have only been to Vegas once to see Phish when they were there in 2004 at the Thomas and Mack Center...that was crazy...all these hippies just wandering around Vegas, pretty sweet. But i might be going for a granite show (my boyfriend is a customer liason. But you right--the chances of any of us ever meeting up is far-fetched.

However, what i meant by saying that we should allgive out flowers at concerts is that EVERYONE should do it, that way, when you see someone else doing it, you would know the message was spreading...mass love, its a beautiful thing.

As far as the TV station is concerned, we gotta keep this idea flowing. I am thinking: live simulcasts from concerts, commentary on political events, protest coverage, etc. Also, i jsut watched this crazy show on sundance (put together in conjuction with VH1) called 'The Drug Years' and it covers pretty much the entire history and evolution on drug use in America, but my point in saying that is that they had a pretty insight into our culture. They said that Madison Avenue fashions reflect the mainstream, and the mainstream fashion usually reflects what is going on in the sub-culture. Now i don't know about you guys, but i would say the mainstream fashion right now is pretty much centered on the "bohemien" (sp.) look, so is that, in turn, reflecting our hippie subculture? If my hypothesis stands true, than the mainstream is getting ready to hear what we have to say...and i think they are.
Under this premis, a TV station like the one we are proposing could really have a mass market.
I was at this party last night, and i began talking a little bit about the war, and one chick was like, "it doesn't matter, people are going to do what they are doing anyway, we can't change that" and reply was that an apathetic attitude closes the door to reform, and i think that this attitude can be altered, if we help people see taht things CAN change.

 

I've actually never been to Deleware. I lived in MA for four years when I was in college. I've actually never heard of Vegoose until now so, no, I wasn't planning on going. Are you going?

In regards to style, I'm not sure whether or not bohemian dress is influencing the mainstream in a big way, but I certainly do see a lot of bohemians around. I live in Eugene so that should be no surprise.

Helping people to see that things can change is very important and I'm overjoyed that the three of us found each other here. We've had a lot of ideas and people have posed some great questions that we would need to ask ourselves in relation to the station. So much has been said, in fact, that I'm having a hard time keeping track of it all so I was going to write it all down and add to the list as we continue with our ideas, that way we'll know exactly how far we've come and how far we have yet to go.

 

Good call, writing things down is a great idea! In reference to the style of the day, the "bohos" are certainly everywhere. It seems to be the trendy thing right now, (you know, spending all your money on that oh-so-vintage-looking belt that "really ties the outfit together") and i would think that it reflects the culture's need to try and identify with the hippie subculture...the wanting to be a part of things in our world. Its not a secret that it is very easy to separate a true hippie from our boheimian counter-parts, but when you are at a concert or festival, the line becomes a little blurred due to the fact that hippies (usually) are accepting of others. I think this is the need that the mainstream has: They want to feel loved and accepted.... not just by hippies, but by everyone. The mainstream culture HAS most definately become an entity. I dont think people know where they stand anymore. Middle class? Upper class? Pro-Bush? Anti-Bush? At this time, it would be my feeling, that lines are being drawn in the sand. People are trying to find where they most fit in. The mainstream fashion industry would suggest that people WANT to fit with us...


Am i wrong?

 

I think this may draw me a little bit of fire, but if the indians had been left alone, and the US never established, then we'd all be sig heiling each other and goosestepping.

 

Interesting. I guess I don't know enough about European history to agree or disagree with that.

In regards to drawing a line in the sand, YEM, I can't speak for anyone else, but I think I used to have a line drawn, but I think now my line has become less definite. I don't necessarily agree or disagree with republicans or democrats or whatever because I don't think that's a question at issue for me anymore. I am a liberal, end of discussion. I vote for human rights. It just so happens that the best options for liberals right now (as I see it) is to vote democratic. I've moved on from that and now I'm trying to figure out how to change the entire system.

If we could all move on from identifying as one party or another and focus our energies on creating a better operating system for our country, maybe we could create a better operating system for our country.