What are the differences between Libertarianism and Classical Liberalism?

Discussion in 'Libertarian' started by Inquiring-Mind, Jul 3, 2006.

  1. Shane99X

    Shane99X Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,127
    Likes Received:
    14
    I never said anything about marxists. I said socialist not communist.
     
  2. SelfControl

    SelfControl Boned.

    Messages:
    3,805
    Likes Received:
    10
    Pretty much. As I understood it, government "charity" (i.e. benefits) is meant to be abolished, because charity should be a personal choice? They argued that we shouldn't be forced to contribute to society, but we should just want to. It was, and is, at best hopelessly naïve, and at worst thinly veiled eugenics.
     
  3. Shane99X

    Shane99X Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,127
    Likes Received:
    14
    Whoa, that's a biiiit of a stretch, isn't it? There's a wide wide wide gap between wanting to keep the product of your labor/wanting no part in the state and it's actions, and advocating the elimination of "undesirables". I wouldn't equate anarchists, libertarians, and greens w/eugenics. calm down the rhetoric bit.
     
  4. Waking Life

    Waking Life Cool looking idiot

    Messages:
    5,527
    Likes Received:
    1
    I'm under the impression that one of the main differences in principle is the nature of political contract. For Classical Liberals the political contract is an encompassing public institution, whereas for Libertarians the political contract exists only between private groups.
     
  5. SelfControl

    SelfControl Boned.

    Messages:
    3,805
    Likes Received:
    10

    It's the logical conclusion of a libertarian viewpoint. Anarchist too. It's not eugenics so much as an advocation of the law of the jungle. We don't eliminate the undesirables, we just don't offer them any assistance and if they die they die, right?

    I know it's a slippery slope argument which is not ideal, but it's what separates libertarianism from the other two, to my knowledge. The devolution of government to the regional level should, in my view, extend to maintenance and such, but most libertarians I've encountered want to go further than that, devolving decisions such as religious teaching in schools, gay marriage, even abortion to local level.

    Big government is good when it comes to establishing human rights, whereas if they're left to local governments to decide upon, it trivialises the right, or worse makes it a privilege, something that is hopefully given by the populace, rather than something that everyone should be able to expect and rely upon. I don't think you can rely on the population to maintain human rights, and I really don't think you can rely on smaller populations, especially in America where opinion on these matters is so polarised from state to state. The usual libertarian answer to this is to advise anyone who, for example, wants an abortion in a state that has ruled against it to "simply" travel to another state, again transforming the right to a privilege available to those able to travel/move.

    Please don't think I'm accusing libertarianism of eugenics. All I'm saying is that it seems to attract an alarming amount of people who, while not quite admitting that they'd rather all the retards and single mothers just went away and stopped messing up their utopia, certainly don't make allowances for those living in poverty or with disabilities in their grand scheme to not pay taxes anymore. They tend to have a very weak understanding what taxes are actually for.
     
  6. Waking Life

    Waking Life Cool looking idiot

    Messages:
    5,527
    Likes Received:
    1
    The assault on freedom from politicizing guilt is greater than the assault on freedom from the natural progression of laziness and fear.
     
  7. SelfControl

    SelfControl Boned.

    Messages:
    3,805
    Likes Received:
    10
    Nice slogan. Does it work in practice?
     
  8. Waking Life

    Waking Life Cool looking idiot

    Messages:
    5,527
    Likes Received:
    1
    I don't understand the question. How could such a comparison "work". It is either the fact of the matter or it isn't.
     
  9. SelfControl

    SelfControl Boned.

    Messages:
    3,805
    Likes Received:
    10
    Well no, not really. If it's a question of one being worse than the other, it's more a case of which is more prevalent at the time, unless you are merely making a statement and not seeking to imply any ideological will behind it.


    Libertarians tends to assume that, if their ideology doesn't work, it's because the people are wrong, not the ideology. That's not so good.
     
  10. pineapple08

    pineapple08 Members

    Messages:
    677
    Likes Received:
    35
    Shane99X: No you did not mention communism or Marxism. I am just trying to get a grip on what you mean by socialism. Does it mean for you any form of collective, communal non market control over the production and distribution of goods and services. If this is the case then trillions of dollars indirect and direct subsidies handed out to the bastions of private coparate enterprises in your country would be regarded as an exercise in socialism. I do not think that the corparate/political power brokers in Washington would consider themselves socialists.
     
  11. Shane99X

    Shane99X Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,127
    Likes Received:
    14
    i agree with that definition, even as the power brokers do not.
     
  12. TGRR

    TGRR Member

    Messages:
    162
    Likes Received:
    0
    Classic liberals believed in liberty and justice.

    Libertarians just want to trade one master (the "government") for another (the corporation).
     
  13. Waking Life

    Waking Life Cool looking idiot

    Messages:
    5,527
    Likes Received:
    1
    This is false.
     
  14. SelfControl

    SelfControl Boned.

    Messages:
    3,805
    Likes Received:
    10

    In their defense, I don't think they want that. Most of them seem genuinely naïve enough to believe that this is not where their philosophy would eventually lead.
     
  15. TGRR

    TGRR Member

    Messages:
    162
    Likes Received:
    0
    No, it isn't. Been by the LP website recently?
     
  16. TGRR

    TGRR Member

    Messages:
    162
    Likes Received:
    0
    Well, that's what happens when people jam their heads full of poor writing by Ayn Rand, etc. They start believing that a "free market" will solve everything, despite actual historical data showing a very different picture.
     
  17. SelfControl

    SelfControl Boned.

    Messages:
    3,805
    Likes Received:
    10
    Well yeah, create a free market at the same time you create a power vaccuum... doesn't seem too smart.
     
  18. Waking Life

    Waking Life Cool looking idiot

    Messages:
    5,527
    Likes Received:
    1
    No.

    The very notion of a Libertarian Party is absurd beyond admission. Libertarianism isn't a system of government, it isn't a platform upon which a politician can run. It never has been and it never will be. Do not let the fact that certain people and parties will adopt the guise in an attempt to show their political leanings fool you into thinking they speak for and as libertarians.

    Free and private association no more leads to the replacement of government organizations with NGO's than the state of nature leads to G.W. There is very little doubt that such an operant system could theoretically lead to a power struggle resulting in coersion, the fundamental principles held by a libertarian are worth absolving the world of the flawed systems of western democratism, which has, not merely theoretically, but practically shown that the inevitable outcome of the current system is the very same coersion of power that you'll scold the libertarian for allowing.
     
  19. SelfControl

    SelfControl Boned.

    Messages:
    3,805
    Likes Received:
    10
    So your defense is "yeah, well... your system sucks too!"?
     
  20. Waking Life

    Waking Life Cool looking idiot

    Messages:
    5,527
    Likes Received:
    1
    more like "your system sucks .... period"
     

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice