welcome to all the new EU countries

Uh maybe for the tens of millions of people who fled to our country from around the world? Remember, millions of americans came here escaping persecution from your side of the pond. Others fled the poverty and shit life they had, like my great grandparents. My grandfather's family had absolutely shit, and have benefited tremendously from the 'american dream.' But you seem to think thats not true.

As for the blacks? Yes, and as bush said, everyday america denied the rights to blacks and women, was a day america was unfaithful to her ideal. As for our Ideals? You can see strewn all over constitutions and laws throughout the world.

Where does the geneva convention protect terrorists? Obviously they arent fighting under the banner of any country's flag, so how exactly are they protected? Of course, this loophole needs to be closed.

My god, a british accusing an american of acting on their own benefit. Yes, we have, just as your country has and just as every other country always has. However, plesae tell me, what exactly we gained from fighting in kosovo? Haiti? and numerous other places. Then again, When you fight for liberty and freedom, are you not fighting for your own benefit?

Even better is a brit telling an american we got rich off the back of the third world, my god, have you even looked at the 'great' british empire?

yes, it was about EU enlargement and as a result people talking about rivaling US power and me responding that i hope you do, and take over our job of defending europe. Of course, i dont expect you to actually read posts.

You point only to the bad, and never to the good. The History of britain is far, far worse than America's, so lets not get into that.

 

See, this is really funny. I couldn't give a shit what nationality someone is, so I don't care whether you think Europe sucks or something. Actually, it's also funny because there's no such thing as 'a british' (think you meant 'Brit').

Yeah, and proceded to anihilate the native peoples that they found living in America. Start out how you mean to go on, eh?

So you accept America was utterly hypocritical until at least 1964?

They were fighting under the Afghan flag, actually. And we don't know they're terrorists because guess what? No right to fair trial!

Duh. Strategic interests, same as always.

Ummm... yeah, it's utterly evil. But then I don't suffer from the same infantile national pride that you do, so I have no problem accepting that.

Look, we're not in the school yard anymore. I'm not interested in who's gang is better. Yes, Britain has an evil history, same as most of Western Europe. So what's your point? Fairly moot point about whether it's any better or worse than America, but then it's not a competition that I have any interest in. Seeing as I have no say over where I was born, I don't see why I should feel any responsibility for my nation's history.

It's funny how you always manage to drag threads off topic though, isn't it? I seem to remember you doing exactly the same in the veggie forum. Of course I'm sure it's all someone else's fault.

 

I believe you too slaughtered your share of indians my friend. Now how many others did you slaughter in your colonial ventures?

uh, blacks could vote in 1963 and before. I think you are refering to poll taxes and literacy tests. Those would affect the uneducated and poor, not a race.

Osama bin laden was fighting under the afghan flag? What the hell are you smoking? Maybe you havent kept up with the news, the USSC ruled that they had to have access to counsel.

Strategic advantage in haiti and kosovo? Oh do tell. I guess we were still fearing cuba and the russians and had to move against them.

I look at my history and i see a nation that has done some of the worst things and history and some of the absolute best things in History. Excuse me for taking pride in that, history matters to some people.

No, you have no choice where you were born, you do have choice where you live though. You live a privilidged life living in britain and can move to just about any country you want to.

Lets remember that you came in here trumpeting about the evils of america and i just returned it pointing out that britain has a substantially evil history. Dont try and shift the blame onto me.

As for this topic, the topic had led other people to talk about EU power rivalling america. By responding along the lines of EU power rivaling america, i am pulling the thread off topic? Right. I guess it was harsh to point out that we've had to fight european wars that were none of our business and that we've had to have troops in europe for 60+ years because you have very little military strength to protect your own borders. It never ceases to amaze me what little tact you have. Everytime i post in a forum you frequent, you go off on a troll rant, you continually say i pull threads off topic, but that would require you to actually read a thread and maybe, connect 2 and 2. But somehow, i dont think you can do that.

 

Huh? I've never slaughtered anyone or had a colonial venture. Oh, hang on, do you mean the political entity in which I happen to be geographically located to which I owe no loyalty and have no sense of connection? Are you terminally stupid? This isn't a competition of "my country's better than yours". That's a game five yr olds play. If you want to play kiddie games, go find some kiddies.

But they weren't allowed to vote in many areas of the South. As I said, it wasn't until 1964 that they had their right to vote protected.

They captured Osama and he's held at Guantanamo Bay? What the hell have you been smoking?!? Last time I heard, America went to war with the Taliban, who were the government of Afghanistan (all be it a particularly unpleasant one). So their POWs should've been exactly that - POWs.

Oh, that's priceless. The US holds prisoners for three years without trial, and finally the USCC grants them access to the courts despite Bush and his government still opposing this, and you think this is a good illustration of American democracy? I'm impressed.

I'm not about to get drawn into an protracted argument on this one, because it largely comes down to what you choose to believe. We'll never agree. If you're really interested, this article might provide some insight into Kosovo:

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1282/is_10_51/ai_54618891

Of course history matters. What's stupid is taking pride in something just because it was done by a country in which you happen to have been born. Why not be proud of something done by the Mexicans? Or the Canadians?

Why should I? The issue was whether I had any guilt in relation to Britain's past. Since it has nothing to do with me, was not condoned, funded, or supported by me, I don't see why I should. In the same way that I wouldn't expect you to carry any guilt for America's sins.

No, I reacted to you blabbering on about how great America was. I agree entirely that Britain has an equally evil history, so I'm not really sure what point you're trying to make. As I said, I wasn't aware it was some kind of schoolyard "my country's better" competition.

As usual, you wandered into a conversation making confrontational remarks rather than contributing anything valuable. Not like you don't have a history of this, is it?

Oh right, yeah, and I'm sure this had nothing to do with American self-interest.

Bullshit. Find me the date of the last troll of your that I even responded to. Mostly, I just ignore you and hope you'll go away. In fact, if you cast your mind back far enough, I even started out defending your right to express your opinion in the veggie forum. I only gave up on that when it became obvious that you were intent on being confrontational and were incapable of disagreeing with people in a polite and reasonable fashion.

And if you still don't think this thread's off topic, then think about this: this thread is now seven pages long, and the actual topic (whether Europe expanding was a good idea) hasn't been discussed since page two. Looks pretty much dragged off topic to me.

 

Uh, then you can aruge that no ones rights to vote were protected until 1964, since people wree blocked with poll taxes and literacy tests. Of course, since there are more uneducated and poorer blacks, it affected them more, but it affected *everyone* who was poor and unedcuated.

As for the taliban, lets remember as everyone keeps telling america that america only controls the area around kabul and there is taliban outside who we are fighting. If the war continues, we are allowed to keep the POW's until the war is officially over.

I'm sorry you feel no pride for your country. I do, for the same reason i take pride in things my family has accomplished i take pride in what my country has done. And i am proud of many things that have been done by other countries, especially canada.

You'll see i responded with how great america is in response that all america does is cause pain and suffering. Then again, you'd have to actually READ the posts to know that. I do get defensive in the face of lies.

Yes, It has been our interest to occupy europe and korea/japan for 60+ years. Liberty and democracy in these places IS in our interest.

I am sick and tired of having to defend myself for why i post in a FREE SPEECH forum. If you hate my posts, ignore me. Better yet, i have gained absolutely NOTHING from any conversation with you, ever, so i will ignore you. You are tactless person who makes comments about the topic being pulled off thread everytime when in many many instances, it has not. Well guess what, if you truly believe its off topic, you're only continuing to pull it off topic! I have wasted enough time responding in defense of my involvement in a topic, no more. As for the last time you responded to me? It would be the last time we were in a forum together, the veggie forum.

 

So you're denying that large numbers of black people in the South were denied the right to vote before 1964 because of the colour of their skin?

Which would be fine, if they'd been granted the rights of POWs. America refused to acknowledge that they were POWs.

Well I would do if you stopped dragging threads off topic.

That's really hilarious coming from a person who sets out to be purposefully confrontational.

Seven pages long. Off topic since page 2.

My first post was on page 6, after it had been off topic since page 2.

Precisely. Quite some time ago. So hardly like I'm responding to every one of your posts, stalking you around the forums, is it?

 

Well, right now it's a bless to watch how this thread has developed. There are some good debates between Megara and DoktorAtomic. (I don't think this debate should stop, but maybe it's better simply to make a new thread at the same forum, and continue the debate there!? I know that I'm no saint though - I also contributed to bring it off-topic). I think you've got competition, Megara. I'm sure that you want to do the best; you really believe in your infantile ideology.
But I think DoktorAtomic express it the right way. You can't just continue to ignore DoktorAtomiks critique, Megara.

 

Turning back to the original topic of the thread:
I'm totally for inter-european cultural exchange. but we need no EU to do that. Just rely a bit more on the global grassroots and civil political forces!
Therefore I can't answer 'for' or 'against' to your question. I'm for expansion of cultural exchange, but I'm against any more corrupt political regimes to be imbedded in the EU - (there are enough corrupt regimes in the EU already = all of them!)
-Not because I want to let any countries out, but simply because I'm against the whole political EU-project (I'm against the idea of EU turning into a superpower). I would wish that dk was no EU-member as well. But it is.

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.

 

WOW, this thread is reborn, well i've a lot to read, i'll try in order to be on argue as i like

 

I love how when Western Europeans start criticizing Americans for past atrocoties when they won't even recognize their own. It's pathetic. There is defenintly a general Anti-American sentiment accross Western Europe, and it's sad. Why don't you enlighten us, Doctor, about how humane the British Empire was? Let's ask the Indians, the Irish, and all the people of former colonies in Africa and Southeast Asia and the people you oppressed. No nation is perfectly clean and without guilt, oppression, and death on their hands.

 

Oh grow up. We're not in school anymore, trying to prove that our gang's better than someone elses. If you'd just bothered to read the whole thread before throwing your little tantrum, you might've learned that I think the British empire was one of the worst regimes in history with far too much blood on its hands. How, exactly, does that make America any the less guilty of its own crimes? "They did it, so it's ok if we do it too"?

 

I hope everybody in here will agree that any participant at this forum cannot be equalled to his/her nations history or to the government of the nation s/he lives in. That's a very common and very simple recognition, which all folks with just a minimal range of intellectual sense should be able to reach.

love and understanding,

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p.s. don't say that I didn't try, at least, to bring this thread on-topic again!!!

 

It was a brave and noble attempt

 

I have to say I disagree with wolf_at_door I don't think Europe is trying to become a superpower, not in the way that America is, maybe from an economic point of view but not in a arms types of way. I do admit that the Eu is not perfect and has alot of flaws but overall I think it's a good thing. As boringtree said near the start of the thread, the EU has done wonders for Ireland and its economy.
I also agree Jozak that there is alot of anit-american feeling in Europe. I've spoken to a few Americans who think it's due to jealousy because there a superpower and we're not. I found this laughable to say the least as most of the anti-american feeling is due to the Bush Administartion and it's stupid war for Oil in Iraq.
When Bill Clinton came to Ireland thousands upon thousands of people greeted him and people were glad he came to Ireland, he was extremely well received in the South aswell as the North. Bush came this year and was greeted but it was by thousands and thousands of protestors and the general feeling among Irish people was that he shouldn't have been invited at all and wasn't welcome. I shared that point of view and was at the protests. Ireland has always ahd great relations with America since many Irish people emigrated there in the mid 1800s and I think it's a shame that one man and his stupid policies have damaged that relationship.
Also to Megara your patriotism is naieve to say the least, you should wake up and smell the coffee,how can you be proud of a country that's been respobsible for the death of so many innocent Afghans and Iraqis. At least DoktorAtomik hasn't got this think of the flag and don't ask any questions attitude.

 

I never said that, don't put words in my mouth. Maybe if you read all my posts that is pretty much my same feeling, but I come accross that type all the time, the Western European Elitist mentality, hell they look down on Eastern Europeans as well. Yeah, Bush sucks, oh well, there is nothing I or anyon else who did not vote for him can do about it right now, hopefully the next 4 years won't be too bad, but people bitch at the US and fail to realize the past atrocities on their own hands. Apparently we don't have a problem then. But America passes most countries in some respects, I don't know any other nation that in roughly 40 somthing years, changed their whole additudes about racism. (for the most part, there are racist people everywhere, and it's starting to grow in Western Europe as well.)

 

I dont disregard all the good america has done because some poor innocent people were killed. Yes, i am proud of my country. Yes, america has killed countless innocent people, unfortunately. It sucks, but that doesnt negate all the good the country has done.

please, read what i say before commenting to me.

"I look at my history and i see a nation that has done some of the worst things and history and some of the absolute best things in History."

If you call that being 'naive' then i dont know what to tell you. You wont accept anything but an outright denunciation of America. Sorry, not here.

 

Would you like to enlighten us to the good things America have done then.

 

no, not particularly.

 

Well don't put words into my mouth. I've never said a word in support of Britain's history. Quite the opposite in fact.

 

Lithuania is new member of Europe Union....And I think it's a big step forward to our small young country...Lithuania is independent only for 14 years now....It's really not many....But now we are in big Europe organisation...And it's great...I think this can change Lithuanians people life and it become better...I honestly believe in it!