Dreadful. The reason why there is no *good* poetry in support of war is because good poetry rings true with the experience of a sensitive reader. Introspective and thoughtful people write poetry. Introspective and thoughtful people understand that there is nothing to celebrate about war. Yes you may well find terrible amateur poetry like this, written entirely without sensitivity or believable emotion and entirely failing to express the felt quality of experience. This does nothing more than attempting to rationalise a jingoistic political position. If that's what you're looking for, for whatever incomprehensible reasons (even to you, apparently), then good luck to you. The fact that nobody here really understands what you're on about and that there have been no examples of the kind of thing you're after ought to tell you something, though... The stormfront comment was obviously a joke (well obviously to most), but there was a serious point - you are likely to find people who understand what you're looking for on a more conservative and pro-war forum, there are plenty of them out there, I'm sure people would get where you're coming from. I've been telling you that for about five years:tongue:
Standing on the beach With a gun in my hand Staring at the sea Staring at the sand Staring down the barrel At the arab on the ground I can see his open mouth But I hear no sound I'm alive I'm dead I'm the stranger Killing an arab I can turn And walk away Or I can fire the gun Staring at the sky Staring at the sun Whichever I chose It amounts to the same Absolutely nothing I'm alive I'm dead I'm the stranger Killing an arab I feel the steel butt jump Smooth in my hand Staring at the sea Staring at the sand Staring at myself Reflected in the eyes Of the dead man on the beach The dead man on the beach I'm alive I'm dead I'm the stranger Killing an arab
War is a tragedy and a failure even on those occasions when it might be needed. Anyone who thinks it is ever something to be celebrated, is an imbecile.
Lithium: You are definitely one extreme and for some reason you do seem to wish to paint me as the other extreme. You seem to have decided that I want poems in support of war. Like I want me some Arab Blood. It isn't, really. I do believe you appreciate that. But for some reason refuse to acknowledge that. I can't seem to convince you that I DO NOT want some gun blazing tribute to "our boys." Those types of poems are kinda shit...the contemporary ones even more so. I even said I DIDN'T want that type of poem. There is definitely a middle ground somewhere here...But, I've yet to find it. It does seem most poems sit on one side of the fence or the other. Btw, next time please pick a less offensive e.g...A white nationalist forum? Good grief.
Please explain how I am an "extreme". I don't think you're an extreme, I have read what you've posted (you've posted it several times, and while it's not terribly clear what you do want, it is clear what you don't want). The example you posted was also shit. In fact probably more shit than a gung-ho, guns blazing poem would be, because at least that kind of poem would have some passion, even if its sentiment was reprehensible. How do you know there is such a "middle ground" if you have yet to find it? I have never read the kind of poem you're talking about, and reading a lot of poetry, including contemporary poetry, is part of my job. No I won't pick a less offensive comedy forum recommendation, because that would be less funny. The level of your sense of irony and humour or lack of it is none of my concern...
I don't think it's ever something to be celebrated, but sometimes necessary.. Again look at world war two.. Peace
You see war as reprehensible. Most soldiers as mindless insensitive buffoons. And anybody not agreeing with this as imbeciles. I'd say that is one extreme. I don't think that way at all. I'd say that is the other extreme. I'd say there is deffinitly a middle ground somewhere, because even though the poem I posted was shit it did highlight that the author thought soldiers were out there doing some good...not just blowing up some Arabs. Get a load of you! Well, I think I have a great sense of humour. I just found it in bad taste when your point could have been made using another site...given most people wouldn't know my racial background. Obviously the zing would have been lost if you had said: Go visit the MOD site for British Troops. But that aint my problem.
IMO Some of them I see as that, some of them are. Most of them I see as economic conscripts and as much a victim in all this bullshit as the women and children getting blown up as they sleep in their homes.
Yes. Don't you? That is not an extreme position. Pacifism would be an extreme position, and I am not a pacifist. No, I said most volunteer soldiers are not likely to be instrospective and sensitive writers of poetry, which is a wholly different thing... No, I said anyone who thinks war is something to be celebrated, is an imbecile. So does Jim Davidson...
Nope. "More often though it is fought by idiots with little or no self-consciousness or introspective capacities (certainly true of a volunteer army - this is why they joined the army)." Sorry if I misunderstood what you said. I guess we can both get things wrong. True. But it still doesn't mean you are that funny for saying what you said...and I am not for not finding it funny.
One of the first objectives of war is to demoralise the civilian population.. Sorry to say that, but it's true.. Peace
I guess in some cases it is true, some are...but it avoids another reality, that a lot more go, not because of that reason. It makes them seem like victims of circumstance rather than for most it is something they have wanted to do for a long time.. because they feel they have something to offer...not because they have nowhere else to go. I do understand why you would wish to see a lot of them as poor victims.
Then I would suggest this puts you in a fairly extreme position. Finding war tragic and wanting to avoid it if possible is a somewhat mainstream position among the advanced democracies... If you think war is something to be celebrated, you are espousing an extreme position, and you are an imbecile. It was unfair to use the word "idiots" in that sentence, but in my defence I wrote it in a hurry and was compressing lots of ideas into too small a space, I even said I was generalising in the part of the quote you've snipped in order to quote just that out of context section. I do think it is a job done by people of generally low intelligence, though technically not idiots. As McLeod said above, these are often economic victims who don't understand what they are being asked to do. There will be a minority of people who join because they like the idea of war, and these are idiots... I didn't claim it was, I think it was just a forgettable throwaway comment which you as usual have made far too much of by taking it seriously and failing to understand ironic intent...
the best history i've ever read was bruce catton's trilogy on the history of the civil war.....sun tzu the art of war .your comment about demoralizing the populice made me think of tzu's writings for some reason.
How many people do you think would sign up to the army if they had means of otherwise supporting themselves and their families.
Sun Tuz was a milatary genius, he would tell you to never attack your enemies strong points. And would extol the vertues of the hit and run tactic.. Peace
platoon again.the charlie sheen character drops out of college to go where history was happening.he didn't have to but he did.the other guys were haveing to go why not him.i guess that was partly why i joined up.that and i wanted to be in the medical corps.now i know i should have waited to be drafted.one of the first lessons you learn is not to volunteer for anything....anyway i could have cared less about what happened overseas.i guess what i'm saying is people join for alot of reasons.it's more complicated then is first thought.
