War on Terror-why arn't we winning ?

outthere2

eggsprog
'...to group them all together is ridiculous.'
Asmodean
'...A generalizing statement.'
outthere2
'Is Michael Scheuer being ridiculous for grouping them together?'

He personaly isn't, he is trying to articulate what OBL's belief is (was).
"They hate us for what we do, not who we are."
OBL is grouping all Muslims together, and was making a generalised statement. Not Michael Scheuer.

That's why I said HE wasn't.

I'm not quite sure why you were implying he was, now stating he wasn't.

To be fair, it was in relation to 'Muslims' rather than 'The Middle East'.

In the second quote, HE does:
'Muslims are bothered by our modernity, democracy, and sexuality, but they are rarely spurred to action unless American forces encroach on their lands. '

I would disagree with him here:
'It's American foreign policy that enrages Osama and al-Qaeda, not American culture and society.'

I would say OBL's main motivation was: Opposition to anything anything un-Islamic.
Which can encompass anything and everything he wished.

 

If you need an example of how terrorists are sprouting like mushrooms, one only has to look at the internet. Gullible young muslim men and boys are reading the diatribe spewed out on a daily basis by so culled Imams who have taken to using social media like 15 year olds. These young guys soak it up like a sponge, to the extent they actually believe the crap that is being fed to them. One guy out here in Oz who is fairly well known by all anti-terrorist agencies said that 911 was a myth, it was Hollywood, as a precursor to waging war against Islam and these kids believed him.

 

Have you read any of the threads in the Conspiracy forum?
http://www.hipforums.com/newforums/forumdisplay.php?f=420

 

"They hate us for what we do, not who we are" are the words of Michael Scheuer, not OBL. Those words are found on page 8 of Scheuer’s book: Imperial Hubris: Why the West is Losing the War on Terror.

Look it up.

 

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You make very valid points,as ever. I'll try to answer your last paragraph. Throughout these pages you & I agree that we are unable to find any commonsensical motive for terror. It is not,apparently, to win public opinion so that we will turn upon our rulers & demand change. If its aim was to weaken our morale,so that we buckle in horror at the slaughter of innocents, & again pressure our leaders for unconditional surrender, I know of no campaign in moderntimes when that has worked.

Yet mindlessly the violence continues,not against the military but in the majority,recent attacks have had civilians as their sole target. It is too easy for the terrorist. The Boston Bombers & the murderers of Lee Rigsby in London are recent examples.

And I take the point that you made many pages ago that 'It isnt all our fault'.

Given the above, I suggest that we stop trying to seek moral motives for contemporary terrorism. If there were any the immorality of their actions undoes any such claim. Call their actions therefore what you will,insanity,criminal,inhuman.
That we stop deluding ourselves that they have any of the attributes of 'Freedom Fighters',or they are 'what the big Army calls the little Army' or even giving credence to their actions because of the behavior of the west in the Middle East to date.

In terms of foriegn policy changes I meant that we look to our Nations own motives in the middle east & third world-not because of terrorist pressure-but because they have been wrong & are counter productive to our long term interests. These would include circumstances arising for those lands as a result of corporate greed,the covert cold war,imperialism,ect.

Militarily its to be hoped that we have learned the lessons of Afganistan & Iraq & that the Wests reluctance to arm the Syrian Rebels is a sign of this.The onus should switch from aggresive persuit of terrorists via invasion to defence of our civilian populations only.

A prominent British General has claimed that negotiations could have begun with the Taliban 10 years ago. I suspect that there will have been attempts to establish back channel talks even with Al Qaeda & associates. This could be a potent means of challenging the core of terrorism,of separating the wheat from the chaff & isolating the worst extremists from those that have supported them but want peace for their people.

We have a template for this in the Northern Ireland Good Friday Agreement. All sides had after years of violence,came to accept that there could be no clear victor militarily. The pre talks back-channeling preparations took a decade or more of hard toil. The final agreement was not 'perfect' for any of the factions & each had to invest heavily but it ended the wasteful slaughter.

 

happy independence day bos :2thumbsup:

 

my people were already on the land when the ice broke away.our country was an island while england was still attached ta the landmass of europe.12th centuary was the start of brute criminals coming here.let me rephrase.all nazis are german!and british!i am well aware of all the good people who despised what their own countries were doing to innocent people.and all the help they gave the innocent parties.it might even surprise you ta know that all good english people were just as disgusted at what the brits did here.unlike you they are not proud of their brutes.they are ashamed of them and don't even want ta be associated with them.i should know as i have many english friends.decent people,not murderous evil bastards like ye support.

 

Did you think I was saying he wasn't being ridiculous when you said 'exactly'?
I read the passage of the book the quote came from - he is paraphrasing or extrapolating.
Like I said: He personally isn't, he is trying to articulate what OBL's belief is (was).
But, ultimately, he does generalise and group 'them' altogether in other parts.
All he really had to add was 'some' or point to particular Muslims.

So, to answer your original question (taking everything into consideration): He is.

 

I have no idea if they are 'your people'. 10,000 plus years is a long time.
Like I said - have you had some kind of DNA test?

So, what you are saying is that when a small chunk of land broke off a bigger chunk of land it took with it a genetically unique group of people that were unrelated to any of the people on the bigger chunk of land, and when a bigger chunk of land broke off an even bigger chunk of land those people were unrelated to the people of the smaller chunk of land or the even bigger chunk of land? Then those people on the small chunk of land inbred for the next 10,000 plus years? Absolutely amazing.

 

I agree with you upto this point...

Well, I don't entirely disagree - It's just it seems to be linked to an earlier comment:

Historically there have been other periods of violent Islamic extremism & its likely that,given time, this one too will burn itself out. To hasten that end,I feel, that the west has to end its interference in Middle Eastern affairs,even its blinkered support for Israel,or this war will drag on.

You have to look at other motivating factors.
Is the theory there is a Christian/Jewish pact to destroy Islam ever going to go away?
Are other more liberal/normal Muslims going to turn into raving Islamisists?
Are Shia's going to vanish from the face of the earth?
Is trade/diplomatic relations going to end?
Is there going to be a time when anything and everything isn't the fault of the US?

Maybe OBL et all are the ultimate troll.

I doubt everybody everywhere will ever join hands and sing a song of peace.

I do agree that US relations with other countries need to be worked on, as a simple thing such as a diverted flight can suddenly fan the flames of distrust etc etc etc - even if it had nothing to do with the US.

Perhaps, but the IRA didn't want to impose their will on the entire world, or atleast half of the world.
So to scale up what was achieved in Ireland is a daunting task.
Perhaps impossible to do.

This wouldn't be a waste of time:
This could be a potent means of challenging the core of terrorism,of separating the wheat from the chaff & isolating the worst extremists from those that have supported them but want peace for their people.

But I think just the general easing of tensions around the world is a good thing - regardless of terrorism or terrorists.

More people are just pissed off/angry than wishing to kill us in our beds, I would imagine.

Do I need to qualify 'us'?

 

This would be funny if you didn't actually believe it.

 

Islam, unlike Judiaism & Christianity (that emerged roughly from the same region & timescale) had no reformation nor 'enlightenment' period to challenged it to adapt to changing times. Nor has Islam a central governing head (like a Pope) or multi sect authority through which to navigate change with the times. As a general response to your questions I offer that as part explanation for its opporsition to a world of 'unbelievers'.
Further in general response, I'd hazard that the Arab spring process may be a an incident in middle eastern evolution,a clash of western & Islamic values, on a par,in terms of impact & potential for change, with the influences that shaped Judaism & modern Christianity. That Islam & its wider culture is evolving through a 'storming' phase that will settle to a 'norming' one more in kilter with the west. If this were to be the case then it is behoven upon us to adapt likewise,making concessions to encourage Islamic & middle eastern alighnment with the wider world.

My hope is that if the above were to be in some way a future reality,then the west would be 'big enough' & equal to the task in seeing that its recent &historical attitudes & policies in the region & require fundermental change. This would have to include the Palastinian issue & the Wests relationship with Israel & the Region,as these are of central importance to peace & future stability & progress.
I hope that this admitedly generalised response answers your 'motivating factors' issues.

My use of the Good Friday Agreement isnt a great example considering there are significant differences between the Northern Ireland situation & that which Al Qaeda et al present us with. But there are similarities. Just as the Clergy in Ulster & south of the Border played a key part in the foundation & continuity of early dialogue,& acted as essential mediators in the inevitable breakdowns, the Islamic spirituality,of all factions, must be redied to act the same. Mutually trusted 'go-betweens',be they local warlords or the Islamic Clergy,probably both, will be key to the success of the highly significant,I believe, negotiations with the Taliban.

You've no need to qualify 'us'!

 

nice try! odon.did you ever hear the expression theres one born every minute.

 

says a military puppet!

 

Summerhill

Are you saying that with a guiding light a religion has the chance to be mainstream? Isn't it the case that PEOPLE are more self aware now. It does not take a reformation.
I look frwd to a time when a majority of Muslims tell AQ to go to hell.

 

You did not really answer any questions!

 

Religion to a degree,in that change would have to be at least accepted by the Mullahs,rather though I was thinking of wider muslim culture,the people as you say, accepting our norms too. Islam is for many Muslims THE mainstream. Yes it would be a cultural reformation.

I doubt if the majority of Muslims support Al Qaeda.

 

Summerhill

I would substitute 'our' with 'the norm' - but I agree with you.

 

No, but an unflinching approach to diplomacy. Think about some of the people that post here.