Vote democrat for now on

Old


As to the video these are people actually going out to provoke a reaction they were wanting to be picked on so they could film it for youtube.



The policeman seemed civil and a big thing was made of a police officer with a gun in the background but wouldn’t that be prudent seeing as they didn’t know what the level of threat was?

 

Ah I think one person sees one thing, another sees another. That's the great thing about this country. Everyone has an opinion that matters to them and doesn't have to matter to you.

 

Old

Yes you might shoot equally but you specifically brought up Colin Flaherty’s “White Girl Bleed A Lot: The Return of Racial Violence to America and How the Media Ignore It.”

A book that makes a big deal about a supposed endemic rise in black on white violence.

How?

We’ll see what?

 

Yes you might shoot equally but you specifically brought up Colin Flaherty’s “White Girl Bleed A Lot:
The Return of Racial Violence to America and How the Media Ignore It.”

I think that was an ad that copied over because I edited that out posts ago? I caught it when I was looking at the post? Basically, wtf cares?

If the rest is not self explanatory make of it what you will, it won't matter - Haha I don't have time to do this with you I'm just trying to be polite.

 

It sad but it seems to me that a lot of Americans have lost all ability to debate in any rational way their idea of a discussion is to shout out a slogan or post some assertion and that it, often it seems that no thought has been spent on what they say and many just like Old run away with their tails between their legs when asked to.

To me debate is central to the political process (as it is to most things) people need to weigh up the merits of different ideas and see if they stand up to criticisms and scrutiny, if that isn’t done a lot of bad ideas creep into the political system.

 

Americans haven't lost anything they just don't like to waste time talking for no real reason, trying to pick fights or insult people by false condescension. What you debate doesn't matter anymore there than here does it? I don't see how your arguments make you right, I just don't want to argue with you. It's not productive or fun for me.

 

LOL but they often talk a lot - it’s just that many coming here seem unable to debate rationally or like you seem frightened of debate

 

Hmmmm....man I think it's you. I think people just avoid talking to you. Guess why?
(and you really need to go on ignore now. Catered to enough without merit)

 

Old

They don’t have to talk to me – but it does seem to me that certain people with certain ideas don’t like their ideas being questioned and put under scrutiny because they know in their hearts that their ideas wouldn’t measure up.

 

Oh you wish. Bet that doesn't even work on mom....sorry, mum...

 

Old

LOL - You mean you believe your ideas could stand up to scrutiny in a debate - it’s just that you’re not willing to see if they could?

Come on man, why not give it a go you might learn something?

 

I don't do that. I mock bad state laws as much as I do federally, and that should be obvious with the way I treated the stop and frisk laws and ban on large soft drinks. I def think you're wrong here.

Okay, I def disagree about stronger background checks. To me, you're basically saying you want people to be denied the use of arms, because of using drugs in their lifes. You know that over 3 million Americans are incarcerated in the prison system, and a majority is for non- violent crimes.

I've met people who went to prison in sting operations; she was a sweet, young girl, and she went to prison for selling a "friend" or hers 1 Methadone pill, and went to prison for 2 years. Now, she has no means of self-defense because our government has treated her like a total criminal!

I think with the laws today, any American can be caught committing a felony, (at least) 3 times in a normal life. (As I said, "disrupting government activity" around secret service could be called a felony.

Well, maybe because I had several posts. I forgot which one specifically you were referring to, but that is not the first post to Fraggle, I'm sure of that.

It's bad everywhere, just different. My Brothers house almost got raided by police in GA, and his daughter told him there were policemen with guns outside; So, he asked the cops what was going on, and it turned out that they had the wrong house.

When police raid houses they shoot dogs; so they would've busted in, killed the dogs, and, scared the hell out of his kids- and, for what? Even if there was a drug pusher in that neighborhood, the cops use of force and violence is crazy. He would've been safer round the drug dealer than the police.

Btw he lives in GA, and the ATL police did this before, and, they shot the "wrong" persons dogs!

I wasn't trying to be disrespectful to you, man- I'm sorry if I sounded it. You're entitled to your opinion too. I don't know where you're specifically talking about, but I will do it throughout this response and further conversation

Doesn't that make it worse? You're basically contending that as it stands, gangbangers and "the like", only sell guns to their immediate criminal buddies.

If you look at the Mexican Drug Cartels, they have AK47's and other fully automatics,and have been supplied weapons (at least once) from the US government.

The reason why it's point to ban Semi-automatic rifles, is because almost every single handgun is semi-automatic in essence, it just looks like a machine gun. My Brother has one, and he barely even shoots it, he'd actually prefer a handgun. But, they're basically the same thing, and I think Liberals are just giving into Obama and other Gun Control efforts that make you believe these are horrible weapons of murder, when there are more guns than people in this country, but more people die from falling than from guns. And that means "Gun deaths" not, "Gun murders." I also believe self defense in your own home is justified.

That's only as it stands. If you make guns illegal, it'll make their value rise, and no doubt there would become an illegal market based around them. Much like drugs are now, or how Alcohol was in the 1930's. The truth is a total ban will not work, cause not only will criminals and their counterparts still get guns, but they and the Mexican drug cartels would have free reign over America, cause citizens wouldn't have the power to fight back.

As I said in my eyes, this puts alot of power and control in the hands of government, when police can only come after a crime has already taken place. It is much more efficient to allow citizens to protect themselves.

And I think background checks are a way of banning regular people who have already gotten the shit end of the stick from government.

Good, because it is against the Constitution. And, you're not talking into consideration Americas ban on drugs and alcohol. It obviously doesn't work as people obtain drugs and alcohol anyway. Guns would just become another racket for the criminals.

No, we havent banned guns nationally, but Brittan has, and their gangs still have guns, but, their citizens can't. Also, there is still violence and murders, they just achieve it through different means, if they can't obtain a gun.

The excuse that you can buy it from a different state, is just that. You could buy it from a different countries too, and we protect borders overseas, better than we do our own. Again, all it's doing is taking that power away from legal gun distributors, and giving it to violent criminals.

Mexican drug cartels specifically, as they carry serious firepower, and have been hiring ex-marines.

 

If you wanted to eliminate shootings, you'd be on my side arguing for the second Amendment. A kid with a gun stopped one of those mall shooters. He popped out and aimed his gun at the shooter. The shooter saw him, so he ducked. And the shooter ended up shooting himself so he didn't get caught/shot. He realized someone had a gun, and he ended it.

Guns can be used to kill good people, but it can also be used to kill bad people. The answer to this problem definitely isn't to prohibit good people from protecting themselves.

As I said above, cops only show up after the crime has occurred. Not many Americans today carry guns, and that is why many of these shooters got so far.

But, I believe the problem with the shooters is the immorality of society. I'm not justifying what they do, by any means- but, violence is learned, and when people are sociopaths or (seriously) mentally ill, they could use societies acceptance/obsession of violence as an excuse to kill innocents.

But again, it's not all of them. (I know at least 1 sociopath went on to be the first black president)

 

Actually it's always been this way in American culture. It's just that everyone has a voice on the internet now, and so all the dialogue, and emotional driven speech and opinions are magnified and self-propelling a hundred-thousand fold over.

In that sense, it is different, because media has changed.

But other than that I don't think the average American citizen in the past or present was ever very logical and analytic, partly due to the fact that in the early years Americans were an agricultural economy, and the demands of life were simpler.

Heck in the Great Depression, the behavior of farmer's not really understanding the law of supply and demand and how it related to their personal profit, really drives home my point that the average citizen wasn't that educated on specific topics like economics, and one can infer many other specific knowledge necessary to understand what their country is doing politically in Congress, the Courts, and the White House.

To nutshell my point: Critical Thinking has always been a damn rare trait.

 

The goal to eliminate all gun crime, is admirable, but it is unrealistic and not attainable, unless all freedom is abolished, and that includes the freedom to think and even feel certain emotions that drive certain actions. A society like that would make everybody automated robots and I don't think either of us want that.

You reference the prison system, in my humble opinion, that is a separate topic, that is crafted from a bad policy about enforcing the law, and a for-profit system that really also ties in with why this country doesn't invest in rehabilitation systems or mental health care and awareness to the levels that it probably should.


I'm not against open or even concealed carry, so I personally have no quarrels with you on this matter. The only point, which we agree on are the George Zimmerman's of the world that are playing vigilante that the law needs to take preventive issues with, because he makes good well-mannered and responsible gun owners look bad, especially if they all feed funds for membership into the same NRA lobby groups.



As for the immorality of society, that's a huge aspect of it as well, but then that runs into problems with the 1st Amendment about what media is promoting to our kids, and the realistic fact that parents have the freedom to be bad parents if they want to be.


So what's your solution since it seems that all our problems are consequences of what the USA defines as our natural rights?

 

Idk what you're suggesting here. They should've ended the wars?

If you're opposed to Iraq, how to you justify Obama's position on Libya, Syria and, his drone strikes in Yehman, and even drone strikes on US citizens abroad? Do you think drones striking countries, and causing massive casualties, is justified, and not giving America a bad name to these people overseas?

There is casualties in war,but none of these were declared or Constitutional laws

Lucky for us we can converse about such things, without being concerned that a Drone will drop a bomb on my head. No- we just worry about the DHS reading this cause I used the word "Bomb" sending my information to a fusion center, which may decide Im a "radical" and, they ought to keep an eye on me.

But, I'm just not willing to give up my freedom to say what I want, and do as I please, with my own body. Too many people are willing to give up on freedom in the name of security I think. Besides, we'd have alot more friends and save alot of these people by shrinking the federal government and not allowing unconstitutional wars.

The oil industry, ARMS dealer etc. cannot wage wars on their own.

It's the military-industrial complex; since Nixon suspended the transfer of gold for the dollar, he promised oil-yielding countries protection in exchange for taking our dollars for oil.

So, you can't keep the current system rolling purely for humanitarian purposes, because the military violence and brute force is written in the DNA of the Federal Government. And if we let it keep going, citizens will not have the freedom to say we should rid ourselves of the government, and people who do say it will be prosecuted by the Thought Police (DHS, NSA etc.)

Random or not, it is true. We give government a pass to break the 10 commandments, and violate our human rights that our founders said came from "God"

A government with unfettered abilities to spy, kill, fly drones in the US and, stop governmental protests are practically given powers above what people know to be evil.

They can steal out of peoples hard-earned paychecks, because leftist believe more tax money will certainly, no questions asked, go to good use. Just look at all the government waste I mentioned. We give trillions of dollars to rich people overseas, taking it out of the US economy, when we have starving people here. I'm not saying we should take peoples money to give it to other people, I believe if people were allowed to keep their money, they would spend more, and therefore creating enough jobs for everyone. We need more industries and more valuable products. This is why drug legalization would benefit us even greater. It would boost our economy and create even more jobs.

When you restrict freedom with insane regulations, you're actually making it harder for people to create jobs or, get a job. But Liberals seem to be stuck on this notion that taxes are definitely better for the whole community, when it's obvious the US government embezzles our money, or hires their buddies on long, expensive projects.

But, it's the up and coming small businesses that are struggling-

I wouldn't used the word assumption, but educated guess. Anyone with any basic knowledge of the human body, would know to slice at the neck or veins. I'm sorry to be gruesome, I am only trying to show, that knives can kill people with 1 slice. Sure, a gun is "more dangerous," but any more prohibition on American gun owners will have more of an opposite reaction than you leftist assume.

Even with further regulations, people will receive illegal guns. And, that should be worse to liberals because then it isn't registered.

Sure, there is some truth to it. Because bullet bounce, and some split open. However it all depends; If someone was shot in the foot, and someone else was stabbed in the throat or something, then, it'd be the opposite.

But, you're saying guns are more powerful than knives.

You know when that useful though? When a 125lb girl is being attacked by a 230lb dude, with a knife.

Guns are the ultimate line of self defense. And despite what Fraggle Rock believes, there are people that will hurt you. And, for me learning that our government killed a 16 year old citizen, kill citizens for having pocket knives in their pocket and, abuses their power consistently- that is enough to believe they don't deserve total control of the guns. We deserve the right to protect ourselves and our families. The first law of Human Nature is self preservation, and we cannot do that in a world where only cops and criminals have guns. I know you don't advocate that, but many leftists do.

Obviously guns are more powerful than twigs and pencils. I never suggested using those as a weapon. I'm merely saying that a crazy person who wants to hurt/kill people, will only either buy an illegal gun, or use different means to do it.

Other weapons can be very deadly, it all depends where you hit, much like with the gun.


However, with regards to further gun laws; sorry- but I think you liberals are following politicians like Obama, because you're scared about the mass shootings, but, I don't think you're really taking the repercussions seriously. AR15's are no more dangerous than any other semi automatic gun. Yes, you could convert it to a fully automatic (just like most pistols,) but most people don't do that, because it's a waste of ammo, and, it's illegal. I'm sure some people do it, but if they're not hurting anyone, I can care less- just how I feel with drugs.

But, limiting clips to 10 rounds is insane. That is only enough bullets to protect yourself from 3 people. In the event of martial law, the citizens would have no type of real defense against troops with military-grade weapons. Some liberals pretend that could never happen, not in America.

But, they're already:

killing US citizens

spying on any type of political dissonance including Ron Paul Delegates and, "third party supporters."

Putting restrictions on our freedom to protest.

Spying on our Emails, porn habits, texts and, phone calls.

Putting 20,000 drones in US skies by the year 2020.

Making 100 miles from any shore a "constitution free" zone. (Btw 2/3rds of Americans live in this zone)

And they've already locked people in concentration camps in the past.

Do I need to go on? To me, it looks like the government is looking for a ideological war with people like Edward Snowden, Manning, Ron Paul and, Judge Andrew Napalitano. All they endorse is freedom and the Constitution. It's not like supporting Obama, that jumps into civil wars, kills citizens like its nothing and then, fake cries when children are shot, and blaming our rights and freedom because of what one crazy person did.

And not for nothing, but it's not like the chemicals they put in our food help any. Especially fluoride, which makes people apathic, uncaring and lowers their IQ.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dr-mercola/fluoride_b_2479833.html

I think government has blowback in most everything it does. They have blowback in the middle east, and blowback among the citizenry who are starting not to trust them.

http://www.people-press.org/2013/10/18/trust-in-government-interactive/


You can believe what you want, as for me, I believe Liberalism, progressives and, Obama supporters are going in the same direction as Bush and the Republicans did during the last presidency.

You're ignoring alot of violations of our freedoms and citing very minimal things he does and says, and expect that to be enough for me.

I don't trust the man. If you could put your name on laws like the patriot act, the NDAA, the FAA reautorization act, NDRP, HR347 and, literally fight for the ability to detain American citizens without trial, and, against our Bill of Rights- you are NOT a politician of mine!!:2thumbsup:

 

Well,you're totally right- if you're trying to obtain total safety through government. It's like Ron Paul said "The only way the government could really keep you safe is if they put a camera and a cop in everyone's home; But then, the real victim would be the American people"


I'm glad we got into this, because that is essentially what I'm afraid is already happening today. There are cameras at nearly every stop light, police who bust into houses and kill people and pets for non-violent crimes. To me, Liberalism is kinda advocating that, because they virtually make no waves with regards to Obama unconstitutional laws and actions. And, I believe they're not truly thinking that the next guy in his position can literally use these abilities to institute (real) martial law. When Occupy Walstreet and other protesters started coming out, that is when they really started spying alot more. And they do spy on people who start protests, so that's something else to think about.

Well, our beliefs differ slightly. I imagine a government rehab being exactly like jail. They'd probably keep the jails and turn them into rehabs- Lol! When the government creates a monopoly, it raises prices. They could make a competitive rehab, but they're so used to having police unconstitutionally searching teens and throwing them in there, and with the crappy service you get from government, I'm nearly positive people would rather go to rehabs in the private sector anyway.

Other than that, you're right. It is a system for profit. They receive hundreds of thousands of tax dollars, for locking up non-violent people, and it truly is absurd!

I think it is related though, because drugs are prohibited, and also like Ron paul said "We cant even keep drugs out of the prison, so how do they expect to solve the problem by making all of America a prison?"

It's the same with guns. They will still get here, but mostly through violent cartels who have received plenty of guns from our own government.

Absolutely! I agree! That whole thing made me really mad!

But, I don't think he was really trying to be a hero. I think he had bad intentions. He was told not to follow the kid and he did.

That's true, but it's more than what kids play and watch on TV. I'm all for free speech (not so stoked about our mainstream media.) But, to me the problem is a general immorality that we're apathetic about the hundreds of thousands of lives we take overseas. I do know there is casualties of war, but, we also shouldn't go to war unconstitutionally, and, we shouldn't drone strike full neighborhoods to kill 1 person.

With guns? I think we need to maintain our Rights, especially for assault rifles and militias, because it is very possible for government to crack down on dissonance; and, that appears to be what's happening.

Was that what you were asking?

 

Regarding 25

Basically hidden in all the rants about evil ‘government’ is the same wealth serving right wing ideas that he still refuses to address.

Above all a taxation system that would give greater power and influence to wealth, allowing it to dominate the system and corrupt it to for its own interests to the detriment of everyone else.

He TELLS us that that wouldn’t happen but as said he refuses to address any criticism of it.

 

Monkjr

I’d suggest reading (if you haven’t already) The Age of American Unreason by Susan Jacoby

http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-American-Unreason-Susan-Jacoby/dp/1905847661"]The Age of American Unreason: Amazon.co.uk: Susan Jacoby: Books

*

I think a problem is the lack of the role of debate in education too much of it can be of the – learn this to pass this exam – type that really involves no thought on the part of the student, and it can lead to the idea there are no alternative idea. The other problem is the corruption of the idea of ‘free speech’ by some to ‘I can say anything I want without being criticized for it’ rather than free speech being a means to aid healthy debate where ideas are tested to see if they do stand up to criticism

 

If you don't vote Democrat, the following will happen, and you will deserve to feel guilty for enabling the worst of the worst:

Workers will die because Republicans cripple OSHA (Occupational Safety and Health Administration)

Coal miners will die for the same reason.

Reproductive freedom will become more scarce. Already, Catholic Bishops and other groups are fighting to keep birth control out of Obama care. Think of how "Hobby Lobby" has been in the news regarding this. (Are you male or female, btw?)

Abolishing the death penalty? Only Democrats care to do so. What about the people, some innocent, who sit on death row now? With Supreme Court justices appointed by Republican Presidents, and confirmed by Republican senators, count on appeals being turned down.

Global warming? At least some Democratic congress people care.

Separation of church and state? If we lose on this one, I want you to report back to me when your children come home and tell you they were made to recite Christian prayers. Also, know that you will be taxed for the upkeep of religious schools, where you will be defamed as a sinner.

If all you care about is replacing a capitalist system with a Utopian scheme, such as Marxism or anarchism, you can fool yourself into thinking elections do not matter. In fact, our present elections matter a lot. Why do you think the Koch Brothers invest millions in their outcome?

Please, quit sapping our side's morale.