Veggie hypocrites

Discussion in 'The Environment' started by Duncelor, May 29, 2006.

  1. Peterness

    Peterness Member

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    "Which is more repulsive to you: killing and eating a cute little bunny or killing and eating an ugly, aggressive reptile? Just curious."

    Both equally 'repulsive'.

    "Sentient life suffers all the time."

    Good observation.

    "And what's wrong with suffering?"

    And that's the point when it hit me this thread has probably been the biggest waste of time in my life.
     
  2. FrozenMoonbeam

    FrozenMoonbeam nerd

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    Thanks man.

    But I have to confess - I'm a bit of a cheat - I live in a vegetarian/vegan flat with two vegan boys and another vegetarian girl and so I get a lot of chances to practise my in-support-of-veg*ism arguments :)
     
  3. Brand New Soul

    Brand New Soul Senior Member

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    Higher form of humanity? Wow... thats far out there. I don't think vegitarians are higher than anyone. The only thing I think is that they care about animals enough to not eat them. I mean... Im a vegg now... I love animals. I have seen some pretty nasty things that have happend to animals that become our food. I get the contardiction part. Why do you use products that are tested on animals?

    Well I try not to. Its hard to find products that are cheap...and that still do that. I know the body shops cosmtics don;t test on animals...Im not to sure about their other products though. As I also try to use bio degratable shampoo and Im looking for a cheap conditioner at the moment. And Id rather kill a plant than a animal. If we ate no animal no plants what would we eat? Its also called the circle of life...for example if plants didn't exsit how would we recycle carbon? I mean we're doing a horrible thing to the environment and the plants are having a hard time reducing the carbon.

    Some veggs eat fish because like my friend her protein levels are low and if she doesn't eat fish then she could die. Fish aren't just wiggly creators they are living breathing animals. Some people cannot fully become a vegg its pretty hard. But I can't really speak for people who eat fish...personal choice I guess. I don't and that is why Im not going to speak for them....thats all I know from what I have heard from them

    But I don't think lesser of anyone who is not a vegg. I just think that if you can't respect someones choice to do what they do...is low. As long as what someone dose, dosen't hurt anyone I will respect them or forgive them depending on how bad the situation. Im not asking you to agree with me, just respect my choice thats all.

    *sorry if this is incoharinte, half asleep. Sorry again*
     
  4. TomboyDiva87

    TomboyDiva87 Member

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    1.Vegetables don't have emotions or feel pain.2.I don't even consider people who eat fish true vegetarians.
    3.I don't have a "holier-than-thou" attitude toward anyone.
     
  5. plume7reaction

    plume7reaction Member

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    well, it's like the saying "you go your way and i'll go mine", i am a vegetarian and i am not going to be preachy about your not being. it's a personal choice, based on different beliefs and needs, wants, and as long as someone doesn't kill you in the name of your eating preferences.

    but, every meat eater should be respectful of what they are eating. mindless consumption is something that i shake my head on

    if you don't feel guilty about it, fine. you shouldn't if that's your view (if you did i suggest you change it), but as i said before, respect what you are eating/wearing. yes, in the natural world it is natural, but in this day and age, with all the mass farms, etc., it's not that natural. make sure you buy grass-fed, organic, whatever. that's natural--not pinning up an animal and killing before they have been able to enjoy any life, as low as you may think it is - every life should be valued, human or non-human, with the same dignity

    one point to point out is, that humans are definitely not carnivores, and technically not even genuine omnivores as we can go, living, often very healthily, without animal products.

    i don't eat fish, but often "vegetarians" may cut out a certain group that they disagree with, like veal or red meat, most commonly, and eat everything else. it's a good start, especially if you're just starting out, but i think that to call yourself a true veggie, you should probably cut out all meat

    and yes, i do sometimes feel bad about the plants, secretly, but there's a difference between animals& plants. most animals, capable of having feelings, emotions. you can befriend a dog. but you got to got people some slack. what are you supposed to eat? plants, they are beautiful, and just like you protect trees, you should respect ALL life forms, like i said. it gives you life, you should value it.plants are part of the cycle, like animals-but in a different way, see. can you see what i'm trying to say?

    but since you seem to lack the whole-pro-vegetarian stance, you probably shouldnt be talking about plants.

    thankyou for your time, and try to be open to all ways of life (well, if that's what it's called-it's a way of eating)
     
  6. drumminmama

    drumminmama Super Moderator Super Moderator

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    JFC! vegetarians DO NOT FUCKING EAT FISH. People who eat fish are OMNIVORES. as you say: "Fish aren't just wiggly creatures, they are living (repirating) animals."
    Learn the definitions and tell your friend she's misleading people.
     
  7. RetroGroove_Grrl

    RetroGroove_Grrl I'm a big girl now

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    Fact: you can live off vegetables and water alone and not get sick, and be healthier than omivores

    Fact: if you only eat meat and drink water, you will get scurvy, and you will die
     
  8. drumminmama

    drumminmama Super Moderator Super Moderator

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    ^^ and smell funny getting there.

    sorry..I just had to....
     
  9. Synesthesia75

    Synesthesia75 Member

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    well i dont know about everyone else, but i choose not to eat meat for health reasons. i'll eat fish once in a while, i dont care if you eat meat, enjoy it. No one is better than anyone else, just different.
     
  10. Duncan

    Duncan Senior Member Lifetime Supporter

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    I'm a MOSTLY vegetarian. My philosophy about why I am as I am is not based on one specific, logical credo. I believe in humane treatment of animals, yes. But I have no argument to people's choice to eat non-vegetarian diets. I choose cotton over leather and suede. Again, that's my choice.
    Reconsider the tone of your post. Calling people holier than thou is downright snooty !
     
  11. Domesticated

    Domesticated Member

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    The three main reasons I see people adopting vegetarianism (or extremist diets, such as veganism, fruitarianism, etc) are for morality, environment, and the supposed health value of such a diet.

    I completely ignore the morality (ie, "you're killing the animal that has feelings!") part of the factor, as it is irrelevant in the context of food - does a lion have any right to kill the poor, helpless gazelle for its food?

    As for environmental concerns, I actually think adopting vegetariansim for environmental concerns is extremely short-sighted. The basic problem with the concept of replacing animal pastures and feedlots with more wheatfields or whatever is actually because it can support more people - with more people being fed, the population can grow significantly larger, and thus require MORE farm land to grow MORE crops, etc. This doesn't factor in the reality of how a significant amount of land on earth is unarable and best suited for animal husbandry practices, nor factoring in things like the damaging effects of grain & veggie farming on the environment (this is something that often gets ignored when people talk about this sort of thing)

    As for the health value, this is a complicated issue with a tremendous amount of misinformation in circulation. The fact that it is possible to get all the nutrients you need (yes, even vitamin C - organs and lightly cooked muscle meats contain prodigous amounts of this nutrient ) from an all-meat diet, but NOT possible from plants (vitamin B12 comes only from meat and is absolutely vital for functioning of the nervous system and brain, and it is difficult to obtain adequate quantities of other nutrients such as fat, zinc and some other minerals from plant sources - vegans frequently have zinc deficiencies, for example) suggests that animal foods are actually of greater importance than plant foods to the human diet. The fact that it is possible for humans to live healthy without any dietary carbohydrate (ie, just fat and protein, as evidenced by paleolithic humans and societies such as the Inuit and the plains indians) also points into that direction Aspects of our physiology (our extremely simple digestive systems are almost identical in form and function to that of carnivorous animals - see http://www.second-opinions.co.uk/carn_herb_comparison.html ). Among many others to list...

    So, that, in a nutshell, is my stance. Bad for health, bad in the long run for environment, and I don't even see the moral argument as worth taking seriously.
     
  12. tculi

    tculi Senior Member

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    whatever bro its all good
     
  13. Domesticated

    Domesticated Member

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    Apologies for my own drama on this, but there's another side of the issue that needs to be extrapolated on.

    I have a very strong animosity towards self-righteous vegetarians/vegans/fruitarians/raw-foodists/veggie-cult-of-the-week/etc largely because I cannot eat a vegetarian diet without deleterious health consequences. The basic danger for me is the inherently high carbohydrate content of such a diet.

    Lots of carbohydrates (ie, most plant foods) are poisonous to me, because I've had a long history of blood glucose problems - I used to have a chronic form of reactive hypoglycemia (actually a form of diabetes). As someone who used to experience it (along with being formerly very obese, loads of acne, asthma, and a whole host of other health problems that surrounded my condition), it is not pleasant to be that way. It affects your mental health, and you're always stressed, and you're always fatigued.

    The funny thing is that the core of the problem was with carbohydrate-rich foods - namely, grains, potatoes, legumes, and high-sugar fruits (especially dried fruit.) - you know, staple foods of vegetarians. The condition I have is a result of chronic insulin resistance - (for those who do not know what all that is, the pancreas secretes insulin when carbohydrates enter the bloodstream because high levels of blood sugar are dangerous, and insulin takes them out and converts them to fat storage for later use), in which I was eating so much carbohydrate over time that the pancreas could not secrete enough of the insulin hormone to deal with all of the incoming blood glucose.

    I was cured when I researched this, and (with trepidation) cut those foods out of my diet, but voila - this requires me to get most of my energy calories from fat - which inevitably means a very much meat-based diet high in fat. But the basic problem is that this is a permanent condition for me (I think my pancreas is fucked), and that I have to eat this way for the rest of my life in order to maintain good physical health.

    THIS is why the whole vegetarian movement pisses me off (actually this has implications beyond vegetarians, because most people are held under the illusion that you need lots of plant-based foods and carbs - whereas consumption of those foods puts me at risk for diabetes) - it asks me to eat a diet that is extremely harmful to me, one that spurs me into a mess. It just seems utterly absurd that I should eat a diet that makes me ill, simply because "meat is bad for you" or "meat is bad for the environment" or other such swill.

    PHEW.
     
  14. drumminmama

    drumminmama Super Moderator Super Moderator

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    and true synesthetes often notice some really wrong stuff when eating flesh.
     
  15. drumminmama

    drumminmama Super Moderator Super Moderator

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    So, domesticated, becuse YOU have a health issue and entire school of thought on eating should be banished, (and you are, basically, saying the same for the Standard Western Diet ) with no care based on YOUR personal chemistry?

    I'm allergic to roses and tomatoes. Why not wipe 'em all out?
    That'd be short sighted.
    I 've had the all meat argument with Bear Stanley online.
    He has been convinced for years that meat, raw meat, is the only food suited for humans.
    I think that is poppycock.

    Your argument that all nutrients are found in adequate amounts in flesh foods is wrong.
    Even the National Cattlemen's Beef Association makes no claims for usable Vit C in beef. And you should see some of their claims.
    carbohydrates, converted into glucogen, are ideally 50 percent of the body's fuel.
    If one is overweight and eating an all protien diet, they will enter ketosis (potentially damaging to the kidneys) and burn stored fat.
    The use of a ketosis state has been popular in diets as a TEMPORARY state for about three and a half decades.

    meat is a specialized "food." It does not have every nurtient. No foods do.
    That's why we are encouraged by parents and health professions to pursue a varied diet.
    Humans are adapted to survive on what they have available: that's why the junk food revolution had not wiped us out, we are opportuna-vores. Whatever it takes to survive we will eat.
     
  16. mushroomherb

    mushroomherb Member

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    this thread made me realize something:D

    some people say that plants dont feel pain, so i say.... what about the might old oaks, and the beautiful tall pines that make your homes? who says that they along with sprouts and heads of lettuce dont feel pain? just because they have no blood? or walk around? or move period? what im getting at is that its all there for everyone, and everything to share. cuz look at alligators in africa, they eat us, and personaly i dont mind. its all part of the system: cow eats grass, we eat cow, bear (or other things) eats us, its shits us out, grass grows from us along with a few shrooms possibly(if its a mad cow) and the cycle repeats. see what i mean? email me if you want to argue more: master-of-space@hotmail.com
     
  17. Brand New Soul

    Brand New Soul Senior Member

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    Im really sorry I really didn;t mean to upset you. My friend fell really ill really ill. Its what she believes not me and its what she needs. I am in no position to tell anyone what to do, its her mouth and she puts in what she wants to.

    I really didn't mean to piss you off.
     
  18. KyndVeggie4Peace

    KyndVeggie4Peace -[ in.bloom ]-

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    All of your arguments in my honest opinion are valid.

    I think being a vegetarian in no way stops the suffering of living beings. Although I do think that a plant feels less pain being cut from its stalk then a pig does being shot in the head with a bolt and then having it's throat slit, just to be skinned alive.

    In no way do I look down on meat eaters, you have just as strong of arguments as I do against/for meat eating. Although I do feel it is wrong to kill a living being with a nervous system for my own personal pleasure. While plats DO NOT have nervous systems ... I feel like I am doing less 'karmic damage' eating them.

    Like I said, I do not look down on you. I also do not look up on you ... but we all have our reasons for doing what we do. Do you kill people for the fun of it? why not?

    Would it be wrong for me to shoot a 4 month old baby in the head and laugh while it's brains are spread across the floor?

    What makes that any different than killing an animal for food. What makes 'humans' any more 'important' to keep alive than a cow, pig, or chicken?

    Answer that.
     
  19. drumminmama

    drumminmama Super Moderator Super Moderator

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    plants can sense things happening.
    but I'm wondering when the last time you were PERSONALLY threatened by a carnivore, discounting local poodles.
     
  20. drumminmama

    drumminmama Super Moderator Super Moderator

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    When posters have made the point that the very definition of vegetarianism precludes the eating of flesh here:

    and you come in and attempt to justify an omnivore using the phrase vegetarian, you are being silly, and you will get answered.
    Quit justifying the wrong word use. As a new veg, you probably haven't been burned out on this:
    customer at restaurant: Do you have anything vegetarian?
    Server: We have tuna.
    You will get there.
    And then you will understand why every person who uses veg and then orders fish (or chicken, wtf?) makes social interaction more difficult for the next veg because the server will assume that veg*ans eat meat. Which is untrue. Some omnivores misuse the word.
     

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