Vegetarianism; why bother?

You forgot that there are people who fight against you all:
-VLF (Vegetable Liberation Front)
-PWEETA (People Who Enjoy Eating Tasty Animals)
-the food industry. Meat Lobbies have incredible power.
-Cooks. they won't let cuisine be destroyed.

I see nothing wrong with wanting to protect the poor steaks wrapped in shoes but scientists tell us that it is unethical to expose your kids to a meatless diet. And the 1st priority is protecting THE CHILDREN. Do you think outraged parents will let all the vegans do that ?
If you practising veganism for feeling good with yourself, OK. But pro-vegan science = junk science. Pro-vegan science is always refuted by real scientists. By being vegan you just make yourself weaker to fight for environmental causes. Imagine if the american army was vegan, it could be invaded easily because there would be no strong men (unless they were given extra testosterone and truckloads of yeast proteins).
On the spiritual and mental side (since ppl brought the subject), being deprived from the awesome power of meat is crippling and cause imbalance. Meat is nourishing and tasty. And being completely deprived from animal food (eggs, fish, milk) dull your senses and mind.

 

Milk = Vegetarian, but not meat
Vegan= No milk...
but thinking that milk is bad is just ridiculous, taking milk in one's diet does not hurt any animal.

However, eating meat kills animals and one can live with out eating meat.

I did not eat meat all my life, but I get my proteins from 'legumes' beans and other kinds of nuts.

You don't need meat to get the protein. Actually, the American diet has more meat than one needs. You need more carbs, not alot of protein... but anyway, with out killing animals, we would live in a much better world.

 

If you feel like becoming vegetarian doesn't have an effect, I would strongly encourage you to google The Hundredth Monkey. If enough people make a small change, things happen.

You could also argue, "Why should I do anything that keeps poor children from going to bed hungry? There are so many of them, and I can only do so much. There are always going to be poor, starving children. It's better that I don't do anything at all." Of course if everyone felt that way, nothing would get done.

 

Not to mention that there as many as 1000 cows in one hamburger

 

I was a vegetarian for seven years, for the same reasons people mention here, but my body was constantly craving for meat.
My mind stoped me from eating it, but in one point I felt that it isn't right to deny my body what it is asking for and I started eating meat again.
For me the main issue is not to get everybody off the meat, but to change peoples consumer attitude.
Imo the problem is not that people eat meat in general, but the amounts they are eating and the quality the meat has (meaning the way the animals are kept and treated).
I buy organic meat products, or get meat from the local hunters and I feel much better now than I did when I was a vegetarian. I have more energy and less health problems (flues, digestive problems) than I used to have when I didn't eat meat.
To say that meat is generally bad for you is imo bs. It depends very much on the individual, where you are living and the quality of the meat you are eating.
I believe that the idea to turn everybody into vegetarians is rediculous. It will not happen. Eating meat is too much a part of the culture and for some people even a necessety for their well being.
Changing peoples attitudes and convincing them to eat less and better quality meat is what I am trying to do.

 

woah, pro-vegan science = junk science? tha'ts a pretty bold statement - would you please care to back that up? i don't expect you to because i know your statement is full of shit, but i could go for a good laugh
and being vegan makes you weaker? go to www.veganfitness.com and see some of the vegan body builders, i know quite a few vegan women that would kick your ass it a second, plus i believe the guy who holds the record for benching is vegetarian.
but please do let me know what this 'junk vegan science' is, i'm curious
and things like PWEETA? come on, they're a bunch of meat head frat boys!
~Dan

 

If you were getting sick more often as a vegetarian and feeling weak you definitely did something wrong, did you make sure you were eating a big enough balance to get everything?
how is the idea for trying to get everyone to become a vegetarian ridiculous? slavery and sexism used to be part of the culture and for some people they were necessary for their living, doesn't mean they were right and we should have let them have their way because our goals were considered 'ideal'
changing a person's attitude and getting them to change isn't a bad idea, it just won't solve any problems
to say that meat is generally good for you is bullshit, it really is bad for you, our bodies are meant to digest meat, it's full of hormones and causes cancer and heart disease, contains sodium nitrate which is not good for you at all, etc. doesn't matter what the quality of meat is, it's still bad for you
~Dan

 

I am not a hippy hahahaha thats a realy awful stereotype you trotted out there.. Anyway it is a personal choice and there is no 'calling' (i am sure that has been said prev'). If you don't want to become or don't feel bad about certain places treatment of animals or just the fact that animals are being killed , thats your choice.. don't feel any emotional blackmail or believe overstated 'health benefits, it realy is a personal choice. We have been eating meat for eons and we will continue for eons .. I don't despise the taste of meat (it was never about that) neither do i go all evangelical about the benefits about being a veggie (as you may have gathered)..

 

Actually, the American Dietetic Association has proven that a vegan diet is perfectly healthy for every age and stage of life. The ADA is neutral and definately NOT "pro-veg". Their job is to provide the facts about ALL types of eating and nutrition. Click on the link in my siggy.

My kids will be raised vegan. I don't feel weak and never have. That is fine that you eat meat, but I won't be exposing my kids to it.

 

How would you know that I "definitely did something wrong"?
I was (and still am) very concerned about my diet and was definitely making sure to eat enough proteins, to have a "big enough balance" and was eating mainly organic foods and produce.
Still my body was craving meat and I had a weaker immune defense than I have now and digestive problems too.
Slavery and sexism are imo completely different issues than a vegetarian diet. Human beings have, as far as we can look back in our history, always been eating meat, in some places people wouldn't be able to survive without. Slavery and sexism were "inventions" of our so called civilized society.
Huh? Why would it not solve any problems when people would consume less meat and we would change the way the animals are kept and treated? Wasn't it you who insinuated in an earlier post that even a small change makes a difference?
Imo it is much more realistic to get people to cut down on their meat consumption and buy meat from organic farms, than trying to convince everybody to be a vegetarian.
I never said, that meat is generally good for you. You are trying to tell me the opposite and obviously you don't know much about different qualities of meat. Not every meat contains hormones, antibiotics and sodium nitrate. Organically farmed animals are not allowed to be pumped up with hormones and don't get antibiotics either and sodium nitrate is not allowed to be used as additive with the main organic labels here in Europe (in the US that is different as far as I know though).
And imo it is a common misconception amongst vegetarians, that the human body is not designed to digest meat. I think humans are omnivores that are able to live of what is available.
Do you suggest Eskimos should become vegetarians too?

 

Kaptin, it sounds to me that your sister has gotten you a bit interested on the subject, you just don't seem to fully understand it yet. And you will if you come on here more often, I assure you, lol.
If you stopped consuming meat, it has the same affect voting does.... When the numbers of vegetarians begin to accumulate the demand DOES go down... don't just think about the meat your family buys, but also remember all the fast food chains too...if you went veggie and abandoned fast food chains, demand would be down because of loss of your business even if it was barely even a dent in the demand...nonetheless.

And before I go on I have to say I completely respect you for being open minded about the subject and actually listening to our reasons and knowledge on the subject.... a lot of meat-eaters aren't half as open to the subject as you're being.

If you want more reasons from other people... I started out veggie because of the animals, and not just because of the demand for meat, but because I didn't want to be a part of it... I didn't want to be part of the reason cows were slaughtered, and chickens murdered, etc. I've always felt this way though... I've always felt killing animals was wrong. I grew up with a father who liked to hunt, and ever since I was able to speak, I've been urging him to put down the gun and bow-and-arrow. And, if more people were as open minded as you... things would change..

Beyond that I recently went vegan a few months ago, and that's mainly for my own personal health reasons. Even when I was veggie I was still eating cheese and stuff, which is still horrible for your health...and more so I learned how our dairy and eggs were obtained rather than just "milking the cows".... there's a lot beyond what they tell you, and what the majority of people's common knowledge is. A lot of people have this idea that cows CONSTANTLY produce milk and must be milked because they would be sick otherwise... But that also is a myth. I.E. Cows are bred to produce a calf every year, the calves are separated from their mothers, hence why humans are able to get their dirty little hands on the milk [rather than the calves the way it SHOULD be]...and more often these days cows are also injected with hormones and hormones in the feed as well, to produce such mass amounts of milk.

Anyway, those are some of the reasons people decide to go veggie, but for everyone it's different. Some people just really care about themselves and like to be healthy too

 

I think it's funny that you say this...because I recently read on the American Heart Association website and they clearly state that a plant based diet DRASTICALLY lowers your cholestrol [and hoping that you aren't stupid, you can draw the conclusion that lowers your risk for any kind of heart problems]

The American Heart Association is by no means "pro-vegan science"

I'd also like to say that it's amazing that you are so narrow minded to actually buy into the bullshit that men and women would be weak without meat. Meat does NOT make a person strong. Proper exercise does. Though.... you may be right in one respect.... the vegan diet will never work for anyone who doesn't believe in it. If you think you're body is being "deprived" rather than treated fairly, then you're going to feel that way....the mind and body are connected in such tremendous ways. If the American army, as you stated, were all vegans who actually believed in the cause, they would have the capability to be just as strong as any other military man. Of course you're going to feel weak and lethargic if that's what you believe will happen. I for one, feel absolutely AMAZING health-wise since I went vegan. By the way I'm a karate student, and I have no troubles what so ever getting my six foot three boyfriend on the mat ....and I'm vegan.

Besides all that, it's not as if an army full of tanks and guns really needs much strength anyway considering firing a gun has nothing to do with muscle.

Or are you under the impression that they fight with their bare hands?!

What is so horrific about a new generation of children growing up aware of the cruelty that animals face every single day? I don't see anything wrong with children having some compassion towards other creatures that we live amongst. Or...ah, are you one of those who believe that animals do not live amongst us and are simply here for our discretion? *chuckles*

I also notice that parents these days aren't horrified by the idea either. Not as many anyway. I'm 18... it will only be a few more years down the road until I myself could become a parent, and I would actually encourage veganism. And considering the idea of vegan and vegetarian diets are growing rapidly, I think it will become more socially acceptable...even with parents. And, any parent who holds their child back from doing what they believe in is right... is mistaken. My mother has always supported my beliefs even though she believed in differently... that's what a parent does. Or should, anyway.

I absolutely love how people who are against the idea of a meat-free diet almost seem to feel "bad" those who choose not to eat an animal corpse. Don't feel bad for me, or look down on me as if I'm depriving myself... I feel better than I ever could have.

 

cholesterol is not the unique cause of heart attack. We frenchies (and other countries) get more big bad evil cholesterol from our traditional diet but we have less of this problems. A lot of things can cause heart attack, unless you eat disgusting amount of oil , fried stuff and sausages, it's no big deal. Vegans also get more ins-fat because they have to include a lot more varied stuff in their diet. Most people eat junk food but junk food is also made of plants.
Think about the eskimos. Their diet is very healthy and complete, and it contains little to no plants.

It's true that most adults don't exercize anyway but I'm glad I never thought of veganism in my early teenage years. That would have clearly stunted my growth. But anyone who exercize and isn't obsessive about the Perfect Diet clearly would get bigger with animal proteins.
What about carrying a machinegun around, hauling artillery rounds, close combat (ok it's for special forces), etc...? Do you think even 2% of recruits would eat soy or even eggs or milk instead of the varieties of meat that exist ? Bodybuilders are people who do this type of sacrifices, it might not bother them a bit to drink tons of vegan-friendly shakes and eat soy yoghurt but they're exceptions.

junk vegan science is stuff like:
-humans are herbivores (sure, and the Pope isn't catholic).
-vegetal proteins are as good as animal proteins. (vegetarian bodybuilders? They can eat eggs, milk, and fish since it doesn't feel pain).
-meat is toxic.
-and other absurdities
While actually meat is potentially better food than plants. It's just like industry. Raw matter industry are plants, matter processing industries are herbivores, end-product industries are carnivores. The carnivores get the best margin.
Meat is what an animal WAS, i mean it lived being meat. So meat must be richer than plants.

Yeah, animals are ours to eat. If I believed in God. I would think he put meat on legs wrapped in leather and fur for a good reason (lol). And what's up with the "animal corpse", "dead animal". Of course they're dead. We don't eat walking animals. And I'm sure the idea of paralyzing the prey and eating them alive, still warm (like scorpios or whatnot) doesn't look nicer to you either. Or maybe like scavengers biting off agonizing animals.
It will never work. At MOST(but there's as much chance as an asteroid striking L.A.), meat will be cheaper and people will say "Cool, let's eat more meat".
Actually I'm not narrow-minded. You think humans should restrict their diet, I think we should start from this rich and solid base and explore the world to find new kind of meat. Exposing the children to veganism is just another pointless barrier.

Look, fur was losing popularity years ago but is becoming cool again. Not only it means the "Don't kill the animals" thing was a fad. But there's nothing morbid or ugly with killing animals, and society recognize that. Slaughering and skinning is not for everyone, but the result is awesome.
The vegans aversion to meat and the meat industry is just a distortion of language, made possible because people are insulated from normal farming/hunting/exploration activities. Actually there's nothing bad with : "dead animal" (not worse than "dead fruit"), animal corpse (not worse than "harvested fruit"), "wearing animal skin", "animal killer" (farmer).
There's also no such thing as "murdering" an animal. Animals are not people.

Being meatless is like... Removing the Meat World (tasty animals, cuisine, hunting, farming, etc) from your Universe. It's bad for the soul.

 

I know two vegetarians both of whom I find worryingly small. We seem to be living in a society of increasing extremes. On one hand we see people eating food with so much cholesterol they might as well sit down and knaw on a slab of lard. On the other hand there are some very strict vegetarians and vegans out there. I accept that it is just about possible to have a healthy diet as a vegetarian, so long as you have a good dairy intake, although personally I would discourage it, but then I like my protein, though I guess most men do even if only for cosmetic purposes.

A strict vegan diet does miss out some very important food groups though i guess it cant be fatal but i cant imagine its that good either. Meat is by far the best source of protein and by association aminos. Personally I believe that the most healthy diet for a person is a mixture of veg, meat and the increasingly more evil carbs. Im told that fat and cholesterol is no longer the enemy carbs are, I still think its the fact that people do no exercise.

While I have no problem with vegetariansim or vegan(ism?), though I cant believe its as healthy as it being billed as, my real problem is when people go on about how meat it cruel to animals. Lets get one thing straight the world is not a plesant place. We live in a horrifically sanitised society. While I agree that killing animals for fur and piano keys and a variety of other pointless things in wrong. I do not call eating pointless. Perhaps veal pens and battery chickens and such like are probably crossing a line I think thats got more to do with peoples obsession for a bargain than anything else. The world is a big place and being eaten is all part of the plan, like bambi, very cute but ultimately lunch for something else, having experienced it once before theres something strangely satisfying about catching your own as well.

 

Humans are neither carnivores, omnivores, or herbivores - we don't fit into those categories perfectly, so any argument holds and any has it's problems, but the argument for humans as herbivores seems to be the closest. just look at the facts for yourself.
Vegetable proetin is just as good, or better than animal protein.
Just think of it this way, bulls and elephants are huge and strong as shit and both of them are vegan, sooo....
about 2 years into being a vegan i ran a 4:59 mile and ran in states( team placed 4th) - i think that's enough for me to vouch that you can be strong enough as a vegan.

Meat itself isn't toxic, but when it's cooked it produces carcinogens(spelling?) -it's a scientific fact, look it up yourself.

How is meat potentially better food than plants? it's basic science of energy and food chains, energy you get from meat is crap, energy from plants is much much better

Actually, it isn't a fad, the number of vegans and vegetarians are increasing quite well.

"There's also no such thing as "murdering" an animal. Animals are not people." ... right, twist the words so you can twist the truth, clever, but you can call it what you want, but Meat is Still Murder and Dairy is Still Rape.... simple facts, you just happen to have a huge anthropocentric view on life...

Actually, saying 'dead fruit' is quite stupid, fruit was never living, it's point is to be eaten, another scientific fact - the sole purpose of fruit is for eating, animals eat the fruit, spit/shit the seeds out and the seed grows, that's simple plant evolution.

Animals are ours to eat? right, just like black people are for us to own, women or for us men to beat and make us food, children are here for doing our work... get real, sexism is racism is speciesism, glad to see you think on the same level as the kkk. Might as well say little kids are born naked for pedophiles.... - just using your own logic to justify other horrible shit that you probably disagree with, put what you say into perspective and think about what you say.

Look kid, i don't mean to be disrespectful, or to offend you, but you really should read up on your stuff and know your facts before you start bringing false facts into a debate - and here's another helpful tip - most of us have been vegan/vegetarian for many years, we know our shit front to back because we have been dealing with people like you for the entire time, we've heard it all and we've done our research and we can show you where you're wrong, don't think you're going to catch us with anything.
and please get rid of the anarchist avatar, for future reference you might want to realize that a huge number of anarchists are vegan and would realize that you're only doing it so you can feel cool and different, maybe a little dangerous.... hell, the Animal Liberation Front, the top domestic terrorist group on the FBI list is a vegan group and all are anarchists....
~Dan

 

*laughs loudly* I'm sorry but it cracked me up when you said something about going vegan stunting growth....I was veggie for 3 years, went vegan about 3 months ago...and in the past month, I grew an inch! and I'm an 18 year old female...

Look, I'm not saying that eating meat is horrible....if it's for you, then do it. But it's not for me and I have my reasons.... But, you should know that being vegan isn't horrible either. I balance my diet incredibly well, and I get everything I need....and I feel great.

Buddy, think what you want about me omitting meat from my diet and it being "bad for my soul"... I feel a better person for what I do, and I don't need anyone telling me different. Don't tell ME what is bad for MY soul. I think I can decide that for myself.


Like someone else said...meat in itself may not be toxic... but think about the current spread of diseases via beef and chicken and such... e.coli, selmonella (sp?), mad cow disease...etc. Also don't forget about all the hormones they inject them with and put in their feed... and you don't think that could possibly affect YOU when you eat it? Animals may have been safe to eat at one point and time, but lately this isn't the case.

and I agree with Dan...please stop bringing false facts to debate...
"its bad for your soul"
*chuckles*

 

can we leave science out of this please. Ive yet to see science as i recognise it used in this debate. Theres a huge difference between taking big lists of people and playing with statistics and the subject known as science.

 

Eat whatever you want. I don't have any objections, but I don't think that humans were meant to be vegetarians, we were meant to be increadibly adaptable. We can survive on a range of diet items and can ommit a range of items from our diet. Look at more ancient civilizations. Natives inhabitating tundra areas such as Inuits would die out if they didn't eat meat, both because of the lack of a lot of plant sources during parts of the year and due to the need for the highly efficient fat calories.


I think many are vegetarians simply because in our highly developed societies we can distribute, transport and buy vast varieties of vegetible matter to insure vegetarian health. But what about any people living in the not too far past in climates that can't support growing cultivated food for more than a few months a year or less and where the vast majority of food they consume had to either be grown or hunted by their small cummunities.? These peoples would have a very difficult time maintaining their health over the course of a year without consuming meat.

The above is just an idea I recently thought about.

Anyway, why not be an omnivore? Bears do it. Are they wrong?

 

This is only partially valid. In my professional experiences as a microbiologist I have personally been involved in screenings of food preparation and spread of human pathogens in restaraunts. Although meats can and do contain disease-causing microbes, the foods and areas most contaminated with pathogens and most likely to transmit disease were the vegetable and salad preparation areas. This is mainly due to the fact that cooking and other processing kills the vast majority of pathogens associated with meats, whereas the salads/vegetables are more commonly consumed without processing/cooking. This is not just a random, unjustified statistic. Oh, by-the-way, in addition to the salad prep areas, the other area tested with very high contamination with human pathogens was the handle/knob to the men's restroom!!!

in addition, many of the pathogens found on vegetables can even grow at refrigeration temperatures, most of the meat pathogens can not grow at refrigeration temperatures.

 

you can't leave science out of a debate like this, if you would like me to clarify on something and explain in more detail i'd be more than happy to. because most of the science i've been using is very basic and should be either common knowledge or common sense.

~Dan