"So you're more concerned about the welfare of an animal with basically no intelligence and and little more than the ability to stand around and eat and discharge waste all day than your fellow man who is forced to live a marginal life of poverty, misery, and who has little chance of offering a better life to their offspring because they're locked into a cycle of poverty? That doesn't sound very compassionate to me." you've basically just hit a major vegetarian argument on the head. yes, i care about animals who apparently have no intelligence, because just because something is stupid doesn't mean it deserves to die. to not care about something with less intelligence sounds hardly compassionate to me. i care more about this issue than i do about mistreated workers because thats the way i am. i care more about death than i do about bad working conditions. i do care about bad working conditions, and if i can do something to help then for sure i will, i just care more about dying animals. i don't even think that my feelings on that are something that i can help. if you can give me a suggestion as to how i can help these workers, please feel free, because if there's something i can do then i will, but i do have to eat something to survive.
Re. the dangers of the meat industry: a modern slaughterhouse is the one of the most dangerous places to work. Workers in slaughterhouses are almost exclusively marginalized people (the uneducated, illiterate, recent immigrants, etc.), so wages are very low despite the very high risk of injury or death. Fast Food Nation is an excellent read for anyone interested in labor issues within the meat industry in the United States. You also say, "So you're more concerned about the welfare of an animal with basically no intelligence and and little more than the ability to stand around and eat and discharge waste all day than your fellow man who is forced to live a marginal life of poverty . . ." Newborn human infants have very little intelligence and basically only have the ability to lay in a crib and eat and discharge waste all day. Are you advocating that we torture, slaughter and eat them? Of course not. But pigs have a intelligence comparible to two-year-old children, and are smarter than dogs, so how is it okay to eat pigs? The intelligence question is besides the point, however. As a Vegan, I do not believe I have the right to enslave and torture animals for my use. Animals have the right to fufill their own destiny without interference from me. It was not so long ago that black people were considered to be animals, and they had no rights and were held in slavery in many countries. Even more recently, Hitler decided that Jews were "less than" and merely animals, and we all know how that turned out. When you make judgments about which animals are "less than," you are perpetuating the very attitude that makes it possible for migrant agricultural workers to be marginalized and abused. After all, migrant workers are "only Mexicans," and they should be "grateful" to have a job at all, right? As for what I do personally to minimize the suffering of marginalized humans in the agricultural industry, I purchase as much locally grown organic produce as possible, and I vote in favor of initiatives that would improve the quality of life for migrants. I also purchase as many fair trade products as possible, given my budget. Now, my question is, you are complaining about the plight of agricultural workers. So what are YOU doing about it? The last time I lived in California, the most backbreaking work was harvesting lettuce, and that's a vegetable that omnis eat a lot of (side salad, on burgers, in tacos, on sandwiches, etc.). So, are you minimizing your consumption of commercially grown lettuce? What exactly are you doing to improve the condition of those around you?
Sorry, but there's no logic to your argument because you can't equate human babies with animals. So, in other words, not much. Organic produce doesn't necessarily mean that the labour that produced it is not exploited; growing organics is more labour intensive, incidently. This thread isn't about me, because I'm fully aware of the consequences of what I do and eat; the problem here is self-righteous people who proport to live a lifestyle because it reduces suffering, and who use the exploitation of immigrant labour as one of their "beefs" with the meat industry--yet they fail to acknowledge the exploitive consequences of their vegetarianism. Moreover, what really astonish me is their inability to realize that while they CLAIM to be concerned about the environment, the ONLY reason that they are able to eat a non-meat diet is because of the consumeristic, materialist affluent society that we have--a society that has wantonly destroyed the environment to the point where it is on the verge of collapse. Kind of ironic don't you think?
In other words, you are a person who likes to complain about the injustices in the world, but you are unwilling to do anything about it. So you find a group of people who are acting on their beliefs and trying to make the world a better place in some small way, and you have the nerve call them self-righteous and selfish. Hope that salves your bourgeois guilt when you are purchasing the products of the labor of children at your local Wal-Mart. Oh, and by the way, human infants ARE animals. Humans are animals. Homo sapiens. Mammals. I fail to understand people who cannot grasp this basic scientific fact. As to your opinion that I'm not doing much to improve the lives of migrant workers, what exactly do you believe would be enough? What do you suggest I do to assist them? Of course, you most likely have no solution because you are caught up in your esoteric discourse about the injustice of the fact that some people are marginalized in a capitalistic society while others benefit from the same system. You, of course, are one of those who benefits, as judged by the fact that you have access to a computer, you can read and write and you are able to purchase your apples at a supermarket. I hope you are keeping that in mind while you continue to hypocritically attack others.
I really don't think that you're one to talk about other people's hypocracies. I find it very, very interesting how you totally avoid the fact that your ability to "choose" what you eat, ie. that you don't want to eat meat, is TOTALLY dependent upon the fact that you live in the most affluent and materialistic society ever to exist on this planet. And that this affluence and materialism comes at the cost of the environment, and all of it's animals that you claim to care so much about. Please tell me, where do all the nuts that you eat come from? The oranges? The bananas? The kiwis? Are these all being grown down thr road on some organic farm that employs labourers who are paid a fair wage? I highly doubt it. It's also quite interesting that you would contend that humans are animals; but something tells me that you would be more than a little hesitant to, as a human, begin acting the animal you supposedly are. That would mean giving up all of the perks of human culture, such as houses and clothing and sanitation and medicine. Are you animal enough to do so? I didn't think so. No, there's quite a difference between man and a pig, and so like I said, there's absolutely NO logic to your argument. As for me shopping at Wal-Mart--there's a laugh. I think I've bought a grand total of one item at Wal-Mart in all my life. But really, that's beside the point. The fact of the matter is that everyday you, me, and everyone else in the Western World is benefiting from child and sweatshop labour. And there's NOTHING we can do about it. NOTHING. People like you think they are by making token gestures like buying "fair trade" items and all that, but when it comes down to it, that's more for the sake of your conscience than anything else, isn't it?
So you're more concerned about the welfare of an animal with basically no intelligence and and little more than the ability to stand around and eat and discharge waste all day Hmm. Whats sort of ironic about that is that there are many humans who act that way as well. I dont mean to be cruel to my fellow man, but there are many disabled people who are only able to sit, eat, and discharge waste all day. Granted, they may be intelligent, but that doesn't make a difference either way. There are many stupid people in the world as well. So the question shouldn't be "who deserves to die more? The one who can't really think but does some stuff, or the one who has a brain but is unable to do things?" Thats just ignorant and illogical. One shouldn't deserve to die more than the other as all human beings deserve the right to live no matter what their disadvantages are, right? Well, then why should an animal who has the same qualities be murdered simply because of those reasons? Why should a human deserve to live more than an animal when they are equal in the characteristics they possess? It makes as much sense as saying a retarded person doesn't deserve the right to live as much as a person with a normal functioning brain does. We all, meaning every single breathing animal and mammal on this earth, deserve the right to live nice lives free from pain, starvation, disease, etc... Just because you can relate to one species more, doesn't mean that your species deserves to live more than any other.
"This thread isn't about me, because I'm fully aware of the consequences of what I do and eat; the problem here is self-righteous people who proport to live a lifestyle because it reduces suffering, and who use the exploitation of immigrant labour as one of their "beefs" with the meat industry--yet they fail to acknowledge the exploitive consequences of their vegetarianism." aware of the consequences and doing something to prevent those consequences are two completely different things. further, please let me know what it is that i should eat if i shouldn't eat meat because of exploiting meat industry workers (and because of my own personal beliefs about meat) and i can't eat vegetables because of exploited field workers. this is a good theory in the summer time on paper, but what about in winter when i can't just nip out the the local farm and snatch me up some of their fresh produce. i get that you think we're exploting people and that this is a major flaw with vegetarianism, but our issue, as vegetarians, is animal welfare. that's why we're vegetarians in the first place - we care about the gross mistreatment of animals as our primary (or one of our main) concerns.
No, I did not leave you a negative rep. I've never left anyone on this board any kind of rep whatsoever. I think it's sad that you apparently think that we should abandon our ethics because there is injustice in the world. I choose not to eat animals because I don't believe that humans are in some way "superior" to animals and that we therefore have the right to use and abuse them as we see fit. I also believe that by not using animal products, I am reducing the suffering in the world. By not eating meat, I am not contributing nearly as much to the destruction of the rainforest (the vast majority of rainforest clearing has been done to create grazing land for cattle), and I am not contributing as much to global warming, chemical poisoning of the land, the proliferation of GMOs or the poisoning of the water table and our rivers, streams and lakes by the manure pits produced by today's intensive factory farming. This is my choice. I do not require that you make the same choice. I also contribute a portion of my earnings to a variety of worthy causes. I certainly do not require that you contribute to the same causes or that you contribute at all. I could do more than I do. I could leave my fairly cushy tech job and move to The Farm. I could join the Peace Corps. I could get involved with any number of programs that feed the needy. I'm probably not going to do any of those things, but you certainly could if you so desired. And there are probably lots of other things to which you could dedicate your life so as to make a difference. My advice to you is to take your justifiable moral outrage and channel it into something positive, rather than attack people who are doing something different than you would choose to do yourself. Every animal has some sort of culture or society. Lions run in prides. Pumas are solitary, only meeting to mate. Fish swim in schools. Chickens maintain complex social groupings. Human culture is extremely complex. The fact that other animal cultures may be less complex and that not all animals build shelter or accumulate wealth does not make those animal culture inferior to our own. It only makes them different. Given the space and opportunity, pigs maintain complex social relationships and segregate the area where they deficate and urinate from their sleeping area, which is a form of sanitation. Obviously, pigs aren't running around building sewage treatment plants, but, in nature, they do not form large enough groups to necessitate that level of technology. There is no question that humans have been, up to this point, extremely successful animals in terms of evolution and proliferation. But, as demonstrated by pollution, violence, urban crowding, starvation, etc., there have been major consequences to the success of the human species. I don't see how the fact that we essentially shit in our own beds in terms of how we treat the planet we depend on for life makes us in any way superior to creatures who successfully live within the ecosystem without destroying it.
I have done courses in Ocupational Health & Safety.In Australia, on a per capita basis mining is the most dangerous occupation.The most accidents happen in the manufacturing business.I am not sure if slaughterhouses are included in this stat.The thing is far more people are employed in manufacuring business than in mining.After mining the construction and agriculture sectors would be the most dangerous.Yea farming is more hazadous than slaughterhouse work or butchering.Catering has a high number of minor injuries but not that many deaths or major injuries. Talking from personal experience, I would say lettuce is the least worst of the lot.I never really liked lettuce unless it is cooked.Maybe you should try havesting garlic.You need a water bottle, a long flat blade screw driver and a strong back.Compared to a slaughterhouse? I know which one I would rather work in.
